We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult • Hacker News Board

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#261

Post by jondeval » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:06 PM UTC

mbreese wrote: post #221

jondeval wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one. This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table. My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks no…

My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another. If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better a…

> I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians.

This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone' view?

If you have, and feel confident that you are accurately representing their view, than I happily stand corrected. Just know that it doesn't track at all with my own direct experience, nor my studied understanding of the doctrinal teachings of the major Christian denominations.

> Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…

This is an example of a statement that is so true it's devoid of information content. I would assume that a reasonable adult who is interested in investigating the bases for the theological doctrine of hell, is also well aware that there is denominational diversity of views within the faith.

The real problem with the 'not all Christians agree' public service announcements are that they have the insidious effect of leading people to believe that there is no subset of teachings on which Christians do agree and can speak coherently.

I know it's not your intention to undermine Christianity through this relativistic dilution and you are just trying to make sure the 'fire and brimstone and sulfur lake' view gets a fair hearing, but I do want to make the point that this pseudo-sophisticated bad faith argument is out there.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#262

Post by alfor » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

halpmeh wrote: post #242

alfor wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to try to align themselves with the most good they can. They take a hard look at their failing ask forgiveness and try to do better next week. Contrast that with people than never try to do that, never have a time to reflect on deeper things, have no community tha…

I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading al…

Good mostly as you define it yourself. That’s why they say don’t judge others, that people will be judge by "God" There is also norms anchored in long tradition, like the commandments.

But yes, there is also a tendency to try to explain everything and reject what doesn’t fit in the explanation ex: homosexuality.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#263

Post by gaganyaan » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:43 PM UTC

jondeval wrote: post #151

TrapLord_Rhodo wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Christianity says that far from suffering always being a punishment from God for bad behavior. Besides, you know... Hell, lakes of sulfur and eternal damnation.

> Besides, you know... For those interested in knowing the actual Christian teaching on the topic of hell, just be aware that this comment is completely incorrect.

Eh, not really. Some people do like to creatively interpret their holy texts to make them more palatable, but the Christian holy texts are pretty clear on that.

You could argue that some people don't emphasize the worst bits, but trying to backpedal on Hell would certainly mean that you're going to there to my family, and they're not even particularly fundamentalist.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#264

Post by SilasX » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:44 PM UTC

nkingsy wrote: post #201

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

My litmus test is when the leader starts sleeping with everyone, or shows some other selfish motive that makes the “above the law” stuff necessary to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Approximate line from the Waco miniseries on Netflix: "Why is it, that whenever God speaks to a prophet, it's always to tell him to have sex with a bunch of women?"

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#265

Post by mrguyorama » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:48 PM UTC

aaron695 wrote: post #95

ZoomZoomZoom wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read carefully and compare the related sentences. For example: > They make you depend solely on others within the community for your every need... Is followed by: > We have partnerships with organizations that can connect you to schooling, work, housing, and medical care...

HN needs spoiler tags. But since I'm shadow banned. There is an answer, I found it outside of the story. But this a a good hint. I incorrectly chose the wrong X from these lines. It does narrow it down. The "buttons" threw me. Still not sure what they represent.

You are not shadowbanned.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#266

Post by jondeval » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 6:49 PM UTC

halpmeh wrote: post #217

drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

> But blindly following a ceremony your entire life ...

I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons.

> I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass.

Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday without exception. But I don't recognize myself or my reasons in your characterization of why people go.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#267

Post by halpmeh » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 7:07 PM UTC

jondeval wrote: post #266

halpmeh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

> But blindly following a ceremony your entire life ... I mean this in the most honest and genuine way. What if you are simply incorrect in your perception of why a Catholic would attend mass? I bet if you found a knowledgable Christian and asked him why he attends you would find a very different set of reasons. > I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. Maybe I was one of them. In fact I go every Sunday wi…

No post body was provided.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#268

Post by drewbug01 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 7:46 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #222

coryrc wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? The usual way -- ostracization. If your main socialization is via the cult, then leaving means losing your friends. The stupidity of the cult means you have pushed away most other people.

I would say this continues to be "I have a definition and I want to stretch it to fit because I like calling those people 'cultists'". It sounds like I'll be "ostracized" exactly the same if I leave HN, if we stretch "ostracization" to include "well, I used to talk to those people in that forum but now I don't, so I'm being 'ostracized'". I wasn't in a "cult" because I was once, a long time ago, in an Ultima fan comm…

There’s being ostracized, and then there’s being ostracized.

Or said less opaquely, most people have never truly experienced being ostracized in the way that a cult can. Most people have social ties outside of a group, and maintain those, even if their primary social ties are cut (as you’ve alluded to).

(I know we are arguing the same side of this point, I just wanted to emphasize it)

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#269

Post by jondeval » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

retrac wrote: post #210

prirun wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In summary, every religion.

One criteria that's fairly defining of a cult, by my definition, is major operational secrecy. People who join don't know what the higher-ups are doing. Indeed, they often don't know the fundamental doctrines of the cult! E.g. people who join Scientology don't get the whole "God is a space alien" package dropped on them until they're many, many $10,000s down the hole already. Now, let's take Catholicism, probably the…

>Such difference seems very significant to me.

Thank you for your honesty. As a Catholic it's interesting to hear the perspective of an atheist on this topic.

Christianity rejects at a philosophical level any sort of dependence on 'secret information'. The teachings of the Catholic Church should stand up to scrutiny and there is nothing to hide.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#270

Post by throwaway_4ever » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 7:59 PM UTC

jondeval wrote: post #261

mbreese wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another. If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better a…

> I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone…

I mean, fire, brimstone, and sulfur lake are actual bible verses.

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

"If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." Matthew 18:9

"And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone." Revelation 19:20

You do believe the bible literally, right? Because if you were trying to avoid hell with your beliefs, and don't believe in biblical literalism, a large faction of Christians are certain that you will also be going to hell; a burning one. Take your pick which beliefs will save you, sure sounds important to make sure you don't accidentally choose the wrong one...