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We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

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Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#241

Post by tomrod »

drewbug01 wrote: post #167
tomrod wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? There is one comment on the board calling out the article's negatively towards magical thinking as bigotry. To folks that are recovering from religious trauma, it's straight up lived experience.

> Isn't that odd, that people are gunshy to acknowledge religion as traumatic? Truthfully? I find it very difficult to see religion as anything other than traumatic, because what I went through was so bad and different than what most people think of when they think of “religion.” I don’t know if I have any real objectivity in the matter. I do feel that there is something interesting in that line of thought, however.…

A few years out, while I'll never return to religion, I get the draw of community and the lack of really caring about what others define as the worldview for most adherents still in their respective systems. Something of genuine objectivity can be returned to by victims of religious trauma, IMHO, but it takes a lot of processing and a general sense of cynical apathy.

All and all, communities in general can create trauma. Its odd to me that many religions tend to be especially good at it.

On the other hand, some religions I respect greatly for their desire to improve the lives of their adherents. Reform Judaism and their commitment to tzedakah and tikkun olam, Sikhism, liberal Christianity, and so forth.

Religion is a mechanism to transfer culture (though not exclusively so). When it cuts out its feedback mechanisms in its governance structure, it inevitably becomes toxic.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#242

Post by halpmeh »

alfor wrote: post #235
halpmeh wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

A was an atheist most of my life but now see it differently. See it as a kind of philosophy embedded in a story (mythology) People go to church once a week to try to align themselves with the most good they can. They take a hard look at their failing ask forgiveness and try to do better next week. Contrast that with people than never try to do that, never have a time to reflect on deeper things, have no community tha…

I'm sure some people use religion in the way you describe, but there is tautological induction in religion that makes it cult-like. For instance, you say people go to church to reflect on how they can do better at being "good" next week. Well what is "good"? "Good" is what the church defines, of course. And unsurprisingly "good" comes to mean something like oppressing those with different view points and spreading all the "goodness" of the church to others. This type of organization has a pathological tendency to spread via coercion and oppression, and that makes it cult-like.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#243

Post by lormayna »

cainxinth wrote: post #168
drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

As someone that is growth up in a religious semi-cult, this is impressive. It's just the description of the environment where I grow up.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#244

Post by pessimizer »

cainxinth wrote: post #168
drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

Instead of writing an elaborately referenced reply to andrewla, I decided to mention that the current term people are using is "high-demand groups" because to monotheists, part of the "cult" definition is tied up in the deviation from their religion.

If we're talking about extremely insular, high-commitment groups that tend to punish people who leave, we might as well leave behind a word that is just as often used by monotheists to refer to heretics. "Cult" and "occult" are from "hidden" anyway, as in you'd better hide if you're a heretic.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#245

Post by lazyeye »

etchalon wrote: post #196
latency-guy2 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in the process of making a longer comment, but I think I will leave it at this one: Non-Violence or 'Ahmisa' being a core tenant of Buddhism (and many other religions), is the one I would pick as a more apt comparison. I don't think it is reasonable to commit no violence, especially if you consider all life precious - even if you restrict to only humans. Not all people think the same, in fact some people are fa…

I'm not arguing for or against any specific precept. I'm not a Buddhist. My analogy was meant to out point that the argument, "I believe everything you believe, except for this one thing" is sophomoric, as the number of things we agree on matters less than the weight of what we disagree on – and vice versa.

And of course we always assign a very, very heavy weight to anyone not adhering to the narrow railroad tracks of our particular ideology.

Cult-like.

Honestly, the people here so desperate to find an argument for rigid ideological adherence just kind of prove my point.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#246

Post by ispo »

awillen wrote: post #214
tboyd47 wrote: post #202

I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one. > You were born to parents who started your indoctrination from day one. Separation from one's own parents is a cult mind control tactic. > Like it or not though, the cult has left noticeable marks on you. In fact, that's how we identified you. Guilt is another mind control technique. > Unlike your cult, we encourage you to feel t…

That seems like the whole point of this - from the perspective of the reader, you can't actually tell whether you've actually just been taken out of a cult for deprogramming or if this is a cult indoctrinating you by convincing you that you used to be in a cult.

I see it, I still thing other Similarly interesting interpretations can be made. Suggestions?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#247

Post by ispo »

deltarholamda wrote: post #186
peepee1982 wrote: post #74

A lot of people here seem to be offended by this essay because of the literal definition of the term "cult" and start looking for potential cults they may be part of. I think they are mistaken. To me, this essay clearly speaks about the maladaptive conditioning we receive from our families and society in general during childhood and adolescence which causes us to suppress our feelings and authentic selves and treat t…

>maladaptive conditioning we receive from our families and society in general We adapted to the world through our families and society. A human alone 50,000 years ago was a delicious meal, not a rugged individualist. I would suggest that anything that encourages you to live an atomized life is maladaptive. We can get away with some degree of that now, but only due to thousands of years of various cult-like behaviors…

See it the other way around: how many maladaptive behaviours have you absorbed since childhood?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#248

Post by etchalon »

lazyeye wrote: post #245
etchalon wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not arguing for or against any specific precept. I'm not a Buddhist. My analogy was meant to out point that the argument, "I believe everything you believe, except for this one thing" is sophomoric, as the number of things we agree on matters less than the weight of what we disagree on – and vice versa.

And of course we always assign a very, very heavy weight to anyone not adhering to the narrow railroad tracks of our particular ideology. Cult-like. Honestly, the people here so desperate to find an argument for rigid ideological adherence just kind of prove my point.

You've completely missed the point.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#249

Post by drewbeck »

andrewla wrote: post #198
sparkie wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people have been saying we are a cult, but they are not using the correct definition of "cult," in our opinion.

Exactly this! The attempt to reduce "cult" to a strict rule-based definition means you can be endlessly mired in semantic debate rather than actually address the operational parameters that make an organization or association unattractive to join, which is usually what people mean when they say "that's a cult". "Cult" carries a ton of baggage. You say "hey, that MLM you want to join satisfies 4/10 properties of a cul…

As far as I can tell you’re the only one mired in a semantic debate.

The list of signs of a cult above is a useful rubric for determining if an organizational is harmful. And as others have noted the technical term “high-demand organization” has grown specifically to leave behind the religious implications of “cult”, though language moves slow and many will still use that term day to day.

Are there any organizations you’ve been involved in that have been called a cult?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#250

Post by compiler-guy »

halpmeh wrote: post #217
drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

People attend church for a wide variety of reasons and it’s good not to over simplify them. Plenty of people with widely varying amounts of belief still attend for a wide variety of reasons.

Some attend to keep peace in their families. Or because it is a social group with which they have a long history. Or because the emotional support of a pastor helps them. Some attend because it would break their parent’s hearts if they didn’t.

For most religions, one can be crazily all in, or just showing up for the donuts afterward. You can’t tell just by looking.

One might complain about how that is inauthentic or just putting on a show, but even that is too simple.

Human motivation is deeply complex and oversimplifying it doesn’t do justice to our humanity.

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