We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult • Hacker News Board

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#201

Post by nkingsy » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

cainxinth wrote: post #168

drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

My litmus test is when the leader starts sleeping with everyone, or shows some other selfish motive that makes the “above the law” stuff necessary to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#202

Post by tboyd47 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:39 PM UTC

I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one.

> You were born to parents who started your indoctrination from day one.

Separation from one's own parents is a cult mind control tactic.

> Like it or not though, the cult has left noticeable marks on you. In fact, that's how we identified you.

Guilt is another mind control technique.

> Unlike your cult, we encourage you to feel these feelings to their fullest if at all possible.

This is another tactic called disinhibition.

> If these feelings ever get too much to handle, simply press the red button on the device on your wrist, and you will be relieved of these feelings for a two hour time period.

Drug abuse.

> Want food? Press the green button on your wrist device, and the meal of your choosing will be prepared for you.

Change of diet is a mind control tactic as well.

> You are also welcome to feed, pet, and generally take care of the various cats and dogs that wander the premises. They are specially trained as companion animals and are here to make you feel better and, hopefully, lift your mood.

Love bombing is typically done with humans but OK.

https://cultinformation.org.uk/article_cult-concerns.html

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#203

Post by slowhand09 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:45 PM UTC

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist."

The greatest trick the progressives ever played was convincing the world that Qanon did exist.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#204

Post by acuozzo » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:49 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #197

orblivion wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that any of these things have cult-like tendencies, or is it a completely distinct phenomenon? It seems like people can go down a rabbit hole to varying degrees. I know I have that tendency. I went down the Scott Adams rabbit hole and allowed him to convince me of some silly things, but I had enough self-awareness not to get too sucked in. And it seems like QAnon is a much more extreme version of the sam…

Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent…

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult?

Ostracism and doxxing work well. The latter opens up opportunities for SWATing.

> how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet?

In Qanon the "secret rite" is going down the YouTube rabbit hole and writing endless diatribes for other cult members to consume.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#205

Post by neallindsay » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #189

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

> Also, not all cults are religious Now we're well into the map vs territory. In the attempt to define a cult (something which we intuit) we end up fixated on the boundary between what is a cult and what is not a cult, and try to create a taxonomic rule-based classification. The mistake is then to assume that that rule-based classification defines what a cult is (rather than attempts to describe what is a cult) and y…

Are you arguing that we should not try to define the words we use because natural language is always fuzzy? Or are you just objecting to a definition of "cult" that doesn't require religion?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#206

Post by chrisbolt » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:53 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #199

sirsinsalot wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a really important point. We use lots of terms these days in ever more generic ways: cult, gaslighting, abuse, "I'm a bit OCD" ... each broader use of the language weakens the contexts where the language is more pointed. Of course, context is everything and language is fluid, but think pieces that inadvertently soften words can also downgrade important intentions as a side-effect.

> "these days" This has ever been the case. As one example, you can look at the cyclic nature of words used to describe someone who, according to current terms, has an "intellectual disability": Idiot Moron Imbecile Retarded These words and others have, at various times, been used in a specific clinical context. As those words seeped out of the clinical setting into the general public's awareness they started being u…

I think this is called a euphemism treadmill: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/euphemism_treadmill

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#207

Post by castlecrasher2 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:54 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #202

I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one. > You were born to parents who started your indoctrination from day one. Separation from one's own parents is a cult mind control tactic. > Like it or not though, the cult has left noticeable marks on you. In fact, that's how we identified you. Guilt is another mind control technique. > Unlike your cult, we encourage you to feel t…

>I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one.

I thought so, too, and was waiting for a punchline that never came.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#208

Post by coryrc » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #197

orblivion wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that any of these things have cult-like tendencies, or is it a completely distinct phenomenon? It seems like people can go down a rabbit hole to varying degrees. I know I have that tendency. I went down the Scott Adams rabbit hole and allowed him to convince me of some silly things, but I had enough self-awareness not to get too sucked in. And it seems like QAnon is a much more extreme version of the sam…

Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent…

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult?

The usual way -- ostracization. If your main socialization is via the cult, then leaving means losing your friends. The stupidity of the cult means you have pushed away most other people.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#209

Post by cainxinth » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 3:58 PM UTC

nkingsy wrote: post #201

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

My litmus test is when the leader starts sleeping with everyone, or shows some other selfish motive that makes the “above the law” stuff necessary to avoid cognitive dissonance.

It's not on the list, but that one is definitely common, too. Whenever someone says they have a direct line of communication with a deity, you just know there is a good chance they are going to follow up with: "And I just got off the horn with the big guy and he says I'm allowed to bang anyone I want."

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#210

Post by retrac » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

prirun wrote: post #187

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

In summary, every religion.

One criteria that's fairly defining of a cult, by my definition, is major operational secrecy. People who join don't know what the higher-ups are doing. Indeed, they often don't know the fundamental doctrines of the cult! E.g. people who join Scientology don't get the whole "God is a space alien" package dropped on them until they're many, many $10,000s down the hole already.

Now, let's take Catholicism, probably the major faith most often accused of cult-like behaviour. It certainly has some of the most political structure and (pardon the pun) orthodoxy of the major religions. But Catholicism is also extremely open. There are no fees to join. There are no mandatory payments. There are no doctrinal secrets. They're entirely open about everything they believe, up front. You don't get whacked with some dark secret ten years in. They also don't really attempt to control most, let alone all, domains of of members' lives. They go about careers, etc. as they see fit. They're also tolerant of internal criticism and dissent; you've got some Cardinals in favour of gay marriage, and some of the loudest voices about the systematic sex abuse problem (one of the biggest reasons one might call them a cult) are coming from adherent Catholics, who aren't automatically excommunicated or given other traditionally cult-like handling for their dissent.

Such difference seems very significant to me. And I'm an atheist and decidedly anti-religious, for what it's worth.