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We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

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Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#211

Post by prirun »

retrac wrote: post #210
prirun wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In summary, every religion.

One criteria that's fairly defining of a cult, by my definition, is major operational secrecy. People who join don't know what the higher-ups are doing. Indeed, they often don't know the fundamental doctrines of the cult! E.g. people who join Scientology don't get the whole "God is a space alien" package dropped on them until they're many, many $10,000s down the hole already. Now, let's take Catholicism, probably the…

> Now, let's take Catholicism ... They also don't really attempt to control most, let alone all, domains of of members' lives.

Really?

"The Catholic position on contraception was formally explained and expressed by Pope Paul VI's Humanae vitae in 1968. Artificial contraception is considered intrinsically evil, but methods of natural family planning may be used, as they do not usurp the natural way of conception."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_birth_contr...

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#212

Post by retrac »

prirun wrote: post #211
retrac wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One criteria that's fairly defining of a cult, by my definition, is major operational secrecy. People who join don't know what the higher-ups are doing. Indeed, they often don't know the fundamental doctrines of the cult! E.g. people who join Scientology don't get the whole "God is a space alien" package dropped on them until they're many, many $10,000s down the hole already. Now, let's take Catholicism, probably the…

> Now, let's take Catholicism ... They also don't really attempt to control most, let alone all, domains of of members' lives. Really? "The Catholic position on contraception was formally explained and expressed by Pope Paul VI's Humanae vitae in 1968. Artificial contraception is considered intrinsically evil, but methods of natural family planning may be used, as they do not usurp the natural way of conception." htt…

Having a strong stance in one domain != moral totalitarianism. Some branches of Jainism recommends brushing the sidewalk ahead of you so as to avoid destroying any insects unnecessarily. A totalitarian religion controlling all aspects of life? Or just a profoundly intense moral doctrine that, naturally, has ramifications throughout many aspects of life if you accept it?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#213

Post by andrewla »

neallindsay wrote: post #205
andrewla wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, not all cults are religious Now we're well into the map vs territory. In the attempt to define a cult (something which we intuit) we end up fixated on the boundary between what is a cult and what is not a cult, and try to create a taxonomic rule-based classification. The mistake is then to assume that that rule-based classification defines what a cult is (rather than attempts to describe what is a cult) and y…

Are you arguing that we should not try to define the words we use because natural language is always fuzzy? Or are you just objecting to a definition of "cult" that doesn't require religion?

No, define away! Descriptivism is a wonderful way to examine artifacts of human activity. But be wary of prescriptivism -- because you have defined a category does not mean you have provided a test for membership, especially if there are connotations associated with the original category.

Definitions when applied prescriptively have to be looked at from an operational perspective -- _why_ does it matter that this instance belongs to that category?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#214

Post by awillen »

tboyd47 wrote: post #202

I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one. > You were born to parents who started your indoctrination from day one. Separation from one's own parents is a cult mind control tactic. > Like it or not though, the cult has left noticeable marks on you. In fact, that's how we identified you. Guilt is another mind control technique. > Unlike your cult, we encourage you to feel t…

That seems like the whole point of this - from the perspective of the reader, you can't actually tell whether you've actually just been taken out of a cult for deprogramming or if this is a cult indoctrinating you by convincing you that you used to be in a cult.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#215

Post by ziml77 »

tboyd47 wrote: post #202

I liked it, but it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one. > You were born to parents who started your indoctrination from day one. Separation from one's own parents is a cult mind control tactic. > Like it or not though, the cult has left noticeable marks on you. In fact, that's how we identified you. Guilt is another mind control technique. > Unlike your cult, we encourage you to feel t…

> it sounds more like initiation into a cult than deprogramming from one.

I'm fairly certain that's the point. Makes you think if rescuing someone from a cult isn't just switching them to a different cult that happens to be widely accepted. Once you have that thought, then it leads to thinking about what defines a cult and why deprogramming is not the same as indoctrination.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#216

Post by dotnet00 »

prirun wrote: post #187
cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

In summary, every religion.

This may be a fun r/atheism tier quip, but most eastern religions don't fit this mold, being too vaguely defined/unorganized for any cult analogies to apply.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#217

Post by halpmeh »

drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult.

Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend multiple hours every Sunday going to worship something they have no evidence exists. The only reason most of them do so is because their parents told them this thing exists. And their parents only do so because they were told my their parents, etc. And this practice has continued on for thousands of years, all because people regard a particular ancient book as true, despite being able to articulate why. And there I was, tired and longing for just a few hours of solace.

I wouldn't call myself an atheist. But blindly following a ceremony your entire life, indoctrinating your kids, etc. definitely feels cult-like to me. Maybe not the worst cult ever, though.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#218

Post by pas »

jcims wrote: post #191
pas wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spectrum things are spectrum things after all, and they are symptom driven diagnoses, so colloquial usage of these terms are not particularly bad/incorrect/invalid. Though of course it can lead to misuderstandings and severe conflicts when someone who suffers gravely from one such condition and now in addition they have to add more qualifiers and verbosity to try to express their needs.

I would argue they are bad/incorrect/invalid if they dilute the meaning or abuse its gravity for effect.

If done for effect yes, but if someone said "I reorganized my plates in the kitchen cabinet during the weekend to feed my OCD" ... and their kitchen was pretty okay before, then I'd say that it's a pretty valid sentence.

Is it the same thing that prevents people from leaving their house, because they get stuck at the door checking whether they really locked it? No, of course, but it's also not a thing with absolutely no commonality. I sometimes get stuck deciding how to re-organize things, try it this way, or maybe next month I try it that way ... then eventually but relatively quickly I get upset about it and then accept this imperfection of the world, and that's it. Is it OCD? No, and I don't use the term, but it's more OCD-like than what probably ~80-90% of the population does. And yes, of course it used to be that the clinical term was used for only the ~1% extreme end of the spectrum. (But then useful terms spread and now their use is more common and broader, and yes, it absolutely makes it less precise, dilutes their original meaning, etc. But "so ist das Leben", that's language for ya.)

And, in general, words' gravity is very context dependent. Cursing is almost like a requirement in some situations in the military, while it's absolutely forbidden in others. Or misusing religious words in a very religious setting, etc.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#219

Post by tremon »

cainxinth wrote: post #168
drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

Are any of those required or sufficient? Because I see a lot of overlap in those "warning signs". I could probably whittle it down to just three observations about group dynamics:

- sharp distinction between in-group and out-group (covers 3, 4, 8)

- high degree of social control (covers 5, 6, 7, 10)

- truth is a social construct (covers 1, 2, 7, probably 9 as well)

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