We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult • Hacker News Board

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#221

Post by mbreese » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

jondeval wrote: post #174

mbreese wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those looking to find a definitive “actual” teaching on hell (or any topic) in Christianity, just be aware, it will take a while. There are a lot of denominations, each with many differing takes on hell. The above comment is reflective of one such interpretation of hell. Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one.

> Not an exclusive interpretation, but still a valid one. This is only technically true in the sense that the weakest straw man still gets a seat at the table. My comment is directed only to people who would be interested in investigating this topic with a sense of proportion. If you bring a sense of proportion to the investigation you will rule out fringe theologies and converge on a Christian teaching that looks no…

My point is that there is no one Christian teaching. I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. Trying to claim there is one “true” interpretation and all others are fringe is folly. What is true to one group is a cult belief to another.

If you want to claim that your Christian beliefs don't include that definition of hell, you’d have a much better argument. Just don’t claim you speak for all Christians…

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#222

Post by jerf » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

coryrc wrote: post #208

jerf wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent…

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? The usual way -- ostracization. If your main socialization is via the cult, then leaving means losing your friends. The stupidity of the cult means you have pushed away most other people.

I would say this continues to be "I have a definition and I want to stretch it to fit because I like calling those people 'cultists'". It sounds like I'll be "ostracized" exactly the same if I leave HN, if we stretch "ostracization" to include "well, I used to talk to those people in that forum but now I don't, so I'm being 'ostracized'".

I wasn't in a "cult" because I was once, a long time ago, in an Ultima fan community, but then was "ostracized" because I left. I just left. There were no consequences beyond the fact that I left. The problem with cults is that they don't "ostracize" you by virtue of failing to chase you down if you leave, they are cults because they do chase you down if you leave. Again, I have a hard time believing in "cults" when the "cult" in question literally doesn't even notice you. That's not a cult.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#223

Post by wonder_er » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

drewbug01 wrote: post #156

tapland wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been very hard finding a psychologist in Scandinavia who even understands the concept. And lately it's been getting really bad having to re-tell the reasons for the PTSD diagnosis to doctors who go "oh, well, a lot of people _say _they have PTSD"

I had a similar experience finding a therapist who could work with “religious trauma”. Part of the reason I finally started calling it a cult (despite the stigma) is that at least in the US that seemed to help people understand that I meant something deeper and darker than the average person. (Not to mention: a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all.)

> a lot of people get really touchy with the idea that religion can be “traumatic” at all.

1000x. I think religion gets traumatic when it is all about dressing up guilt and shame for behavior control. That is when it gets traumatic.

Parents using shame to get specific behaviors from their kids (or prevent certain behaviors) are turning a very powerful tool against their kids, and it hurts everyone.

I'm no-contact with _both_ my parents, over this issue, and they're not even able to perceive that they used shame, constantly, against all three of their children, and continue to do so.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#224

Post by jerf » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:40 PM UTC

acuozzo wrote: post #204

jerf wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there varying degrees? Sure. Can QAnon be a cult in a more strict sense of the term? I have a hard time believing in the existence of a cult that exists over the internet where most or all of its members are internet handles; how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Or per cainxinth's point, how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? I think that gets back to grandparent…

> how exactly does one punish "slimeDogAvarest281" for betraying the cult? Ostracism and doxxing work well. The latter opens up opportunities for SWATing. > how does on perform "secret rites" over the internet? In Qanon the "secret rite" is going down the YouTube rabbit hole and writing endless diatribes for other cult members to consume.

"In Qanon the "secret rite" is going down the YouTube rabbit hole and writing endless diatribes for other cult members to consume."

No, that lacks the characteristics of all "secret rites". If you're "writing diatribes" and posting them publicly, that's not secret, for one.

I can't exactly write an essay here about what secret rites are and what a key structural component they are, but you can get a good sense about them from reading about hazing, then amping it up to the next degree: https://people.howstuffworks.com/culture-traditions/national... (It was actually hard to find something that actually talks about why it occurs and is a stable pattern in human subcultures, rather than just decrying it without explanation. I don't like it and don't agree with it; in hindsight, I accidentally broke the hazing chain in my high school band because I refused to propagate it. It was an accident, though, because I didn't understand the purpose. Now I do, and both know even more effectively how I'd break the chain and how to attain similar goals in an organization in positive and healthy ways deliberately, instead of accidentally.) "Writing endless diatribes" is nothing like hazing and accomplishes none of the same goals.

Again, if you're going "but but but" in order to try to salvage the idea, you're trying to hard, and the reason I'm banging on this is the same reason the original poster posted. If you want to understand cults, you need to not fall into the trap of declaring your high school band, a popular Pokemon internet forum, or a chess enthusiast club to be "cults" too. Cults are a very serious problem that deserve to be understood, not minimized because some people want to use the term to slur some other people online.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#225

Post by tremon » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:41 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #199

sirsinsalot wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a really important point. We use lots of terms these days in ever more generic ways: cult, gaslighting, abuse, "I'm a bit OCD" ... each broader use of the language weakens the contexts where the language is more pointed. Of course, context is everything and language is fluid, but think pieces that inadvertently soften words can also downgrade important intentions as a side-effect.

> "these days" This has ever been the case. As one example, you can look at the cyclic nature of words used to describe someone who, according to current terms, has an "intellectual disability": Idiot Moron Imbecile Retarded These words and others have, at various times, been used in a specific clinical context. As those words seeped out of the clinical setting into the general public's awareness they started being u…

"special"

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#226

Post by foldr » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

prirun wrote: post #211

retrac wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One criteria that's fairly defining of a cult, by my definition, is major operational secrecy. People who join don't know what the higher-ups are doing. Indeed, they often don't know the fundamental doctrines of the cult! E.g. people who join Scientology don't get the whole "God is a space alien" package dropped on them until they're many, many $10,000s down the hole already. Now, let's take Catholicism, probably the…

> Now, let's take Catholicism ... They also don't really attempt to control most, let alone all, domains of of members' lives. Really? "The Catholic position on contraception was formally explained and expressed by Pope Paul VI's Humanae vitae in 1968. Artificial contraception is considered intrinsically evil, but methods of natural family planning may be used, as they do not usurp the natural way of conception." htt…

This is a doctrine that's famously ignored by most practicing Catholics. I could write paragraphs of criticism of the Catholic Church, but it's not really any more cult-like than lots of other organizations that people belong to (the most obvious example being the organizations that they work for).

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#227

Post by mistrial9 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

nkingsy wrote: post #201

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

My litmus test is when the leader starts sleeping with everyone, or shows some other selfish motive that makes the “above the law” stuff necessary to avoid cognitive dissonance.

add to that - its not "sleeping" .. it is sex.. sometimes very energetic sex. Sex activity is deeply tied to social constructs, and at the same time powerful forces of the mind and body in a very personal way .. sex activity in a group like that has been the raison d'etre of many orthodox religious orders.. anti- that is, to ban and demolish that, basically.. because it does work.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#228

Post by mistrial9 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

camjohnson26 wrote: post #184

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

It’s been posted here before but The Guru Papers is a great exploration of the workings of cults and authoritarianism. https://www.amazon.com/Guru-Papers-Masks-Authoritarian-Power...

I enjoyed reading "Holy Madness: Spirituality, Crazy-Wise Teachers, and Enlightenment" by G. Feuerstein. great re-visit of the sometimes ridiculous counter-culture of the 1960s and 1970s West.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#229

Post by alasdair_ » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:46 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #189

cainxinth wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults have common and shared warning signs: https://medium.com/@zelphontheshelf/10-signs-youre-probably-... 1. The leader is the ultimate authority 2. The group suppresses skepticism 3. The group delegitimizes former members 4. The group is paranoid about the outside world 5. The group relies on shame cycles 6. The leader is above the law 7. The group uses “thought reform” methods 8. The group is elitist 9. There is…

> Also, not all cults are religious Now we're well into the map vs territory. In the attempt to define a cult (something which we intuit) we end up fixated on the boundary between what is a cult and what is not a cult, and try to create a taxonomic rule-based classification. The mistake is then to assume that that rule-based classification defines what a cult is (rather than attempts to describe what is a cult) and y…

>absent a religious motivation (where "religious" itself is a similarly nebulous concept) it's not a cult.

NXIVM was absolutely a cult, despite a focus on self-improvement/ philosophy rather than religion. They had a supreme leader, they cut off the members from the outside, there was a clean ingroup/outgroup and they freaking branded their members. Sure, in most ways it was "just" an MLM but it was also absolutely a cult and it absolutely ruined people's lives in an identical way.

Scientology was a cult even before the point it took on the trappings of religion for tax purposes. It was originally NOT a religion - it was just more pseudo-scientific MLM nonsense. It was still a cult.

Sex cults are also definitely cults, even though the focus is on sex and the leader in general rather than religion.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#230

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 4:47 PM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #132

mcv wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is relying on your own answers really better than relying on an external authority? Only if it's always the same authority. But always thinking you know better than everybody else doesn't really sound any healthier.

I know of a guy through a social worker friend who, if he goes off his medication (which he does with some frequency), becomes convinced that there are vampires who are out to get him. The human mind is not always a terribly reliable authority, especially your own (where you lack perspective).

Effective approaches to this I've heard of involve learning to treat the hallucinations with respect, learning to communicate effectively with them, and learning from them. This is reflected both in how some tribal cultures approach hallucinations & modern approaches to schizophrenia and the like. Avoiding these things by medicating them away seems like a form of suppression that preserves the underlying thought/behavior processes (like avoiding one's fears of monsters or death) that are feeding into the hallucinations. Effective solutions usually don't pathologize or avoid experiences.

If we get caught up in judging what's real or imagined, then we can lose sight of what's available for us to learn from.