We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult • Hacker News Board

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#271

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #270

jondeval wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone…

I mean, fire, brimstone, and sulfur lake are actual bible verses. "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life wi…

> You do believe the bible literally, right? Because if you were trying to avoid hell with your beliefs, and don’t believe in biblical literalism, a large faction of Christians are certain that you will also be going to hell.

A rather large fraction of Christians don’t believe in literalism, and think it is not only a doctrinal error in itself, but also the source of numerous doctrinal errors.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#272

Post by drewbeck » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:05 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #257

drewbeck wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I can tell you’re the only one mired in a semantic debate. The list of signs of a cult above is a useful rubric for determining if an organizational is harmful. And as others have noted the technical term “high-demand organization” has grown specifically to leave behind the religious implications of “cult”, though language moves slow and many will still use that term day to day. Are there any organizations…

Well, I wouldn't say "mired", but I do agree that I'm the only one directly addressing the distinction between substance and semantics. I do not agree about the list. That list is there to win semantic arguments about whether something is a cult or not. Nothing to do with harm; you can argue that some of the criteria, like "shame cycles" are harmful in and of themselves, but most are harmless attributes. Apply it to…

No, the list is diagnostic, in the same way that lists of behaviors and experiences that may indicate depression, bpd, or any psychological state/disorder is. The list is "you may be in a cult if", not "lol it's totally a cult nerd, look at this definitive list"

I agree that people use "cult" too quickly. But that doesn't mean that a list like that isn't helpful.

Plus if your kids soccer team "delegitimizes former members", "is paranoid about the outside world" and "relies on shame cycles" then … big oof! These are not typical behaviors.

(Part of your argument I think is that these ideas are subjective. If you're in a jewish group that has a meeting about rising anti-semitism are you "paranoid". Hell no. But could someone call you "paranoid"? Sure. Working through that subjectiveness is actually where the meat of this issue is.)

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#273

Post by throwaway_4ever » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:07 PM UTC

slowhand09 wrote: post #203

"The greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing the world that he did not exist." The greatest trick the progressives ever played was convincing the world that Qanon did exist.

Is this satire? My progressives-hating family were the only ones shoving down my throat that Qanon exists...

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#274

Post by mistermann » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:13 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #238

alasdair_ wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>absent a religious motivation (where "religious" itself is a similarly nebulous concept) it's not a cult. NXIVM was absolutely a cult, despite a focus on self-improvement/ philosophy rather than religion. They had a supreme leader, they cut off the members from the outside, there was a clean ingroup/outgroup and they freaking branded their members. Sure, in most ways it was "just" an MLM but it was also absolutely a…

So you list a bunch of bad things that NXIVM did. How does labeling it a "cult" add or detract from that list of bad things? Sure, it did bad things. If a member were a Christian, did it force them to denounce God or renounce their hope of salvation, or to otherwise accept heretical beliefs? I am not Christian; these are not things important to me, but they are part of the operational definition of a classical cult,…

> I am not Christian; these are not things important to me, but they are part of the operational definition of a classical cult, which NXIVM is not, in that sense.

Could you possibly link to this singular, authoritative (and non-contested) "operational definition of a classical cult"?

> Why use the label cult? As a rhetorical device, that's fine, but don't present it to me as an absolute.

Only your absolute definition is allowed? Is there a governing body for such things?

> Language is free -- what I think subjectively is a cult and what you do are different, and usage will evolve as time goes on, and that's fine.

This is a bit inconsistent with the rest of your comment - what constitutes a cult is now subjective?

> I'm in general in favor of holding to a narrower definition because otherwise the semantic mismatch in discussing cults can get very broad, to the point where we're just talking about two different things and the connection from cult -> occult -> hidden knowledge has been completely lost.

Is it possible that this could be happening right here in this thread?

> EDIT: And not stated here, but my main thrust, is that expanding the meaning because of poorly scoped definitions is the worst possible way to go about it because it's motivated by pseudo-logic rather than by organic usage.

Now we're back to "the (singular) meaning"?

Sir: do you recall where you acquired your facts? Did those who provided them to you include any supporting proofs?

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#275

Post by jondeval » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:38 PM UTC

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #270

jondeval wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know many people who believe in the literal fire and brimstone definition of Hell who are devout Christians. This seems fishy to me. I'm sure you know (or know of) many people who you label in the category of devout Christians who believe in the existence of hell. It is a biblical teaching after all. But have you pressure tested their views in deep conversation to see if they hold to a 'literal fire and brimstone…

I mean, fire, brimstone, and sulfur lake are actual bible verses. "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life wi…

The reality of hell is absolutely grounded in both the Biblical texts and the Christian tradition. Furthermore the image of 'fire' to describe this reality cannot be disputed. Thank you for looking up the most relevant verses.

It's a topic worth understanding and studying with seriousness. Otherwise you'll be prone to interpret the teaching as just a capricious punishment from God for some bad things that you've done.

My original post was in response to a snarky comment made along those lines but it looks like that context has been lost.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#276

Post by gwd » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:41 PM UTC

archon1410 wrote: post #145

gwd wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the problem thinking they're trying to address here is the idea, "I'm suffering because I've done something bad and am being punished by God." But if they think this kind of thinking is directly linked to religion, then it's just ignorance and bigotry. Consider the folloing quote: "Everything happens for a reason. Sometimes the reason is you're stupid and make bad decisions." The people I know who most…

Look like you might be in a cult.

One thing TFA did do was to describe very well the bad things about a cult: separating you from friends and family, controlling you with guilt, forbidding you from engaging honestly with differing belief systems.

I have not been pressured to cut off from friends or family, regardless of their belief systems; I am not controlled by guilt; and I genuinely try to engage the best I can with other belief systems. I'm pretty sure I could make a case for atheism at least as strongly as you could.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#277

Post by geye1234 » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:44 PM UTC

halpmeh wrote: post #217

drewbug01 wrote: post #130

It’s an interesting piece, and I think it’s intended to be satirical (and done rather well). But, I grew up in an actual cult. The comments here to the effect of “everything’s a cult” and “startups are cults” and “HN is a cult” - oh gosh. Nothing could be further from the truth. HN is not a cult, folks. I’m glad people can make those jokes though, because I immediately know they didn’t experience what I did. They hav…

I don't think the point is that everything is a cult. Rather, the point is for you to reflect if maybe you are part of something cult-like. And no, I don't think HN is a cult or most startups are a cult. Yesterday was Sunday. I have a kid, meaning I have little time and I'm frequently tired. I was driving around town and I saw throngs of people out to attend Sunday mass. And it got me thinking. These people spend mul…

As a sibling poster says, why don't you ask them? I converted to Catholicism after weighing it up against pantheism, atheism, and other forms of Christianity. I think I have very good reasons for believing in God's existence with a very high degree of confidence (not just "look what I experienced" reasons, but philosophical arguments that appear sound to me). And I teach my kids about it because if I let them "make up their own mind", they'll fall for whatever persuasive argument they first encounter. Of course I want them not to believe anything "blindly", and to make sure they test the reasons they're given for things, and to think through the arguments logically, etc.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#278

Post by jondeval » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:46 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #271

throwaway_4ever wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, fire, brimstone, and sulfur lake are actual bible verses. "But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8 "If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life wi…

> You do believe the bible literally, right? Because if you were trying to avoid hell with your beliefs, and don’t believe in biblical literalism, a large faction of Christians are certain that you will also be going to hell. A rather large fraction of Christians don’t believe in literalism, and think it is not only a doctrinal error in itself, but also the source of numerous doctrinal errors.

At the risk of going too far off topic, there is a distinction between Biblical inerrancy and Biblical literalism.

For example, Jesus says: 'You are the salt of the earth.' He doesn't literally mean his followers are Sodium Chloride molecules.

Diving deeper in one specific interpretive case, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that the Bible is Inerrant but the 'literal' interpretation is not always to be prefered.

This should be obvious because the Bible is not a book it's a library, and how you read it depends on which section of the library you are in.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#279

Post by andrewla » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #274

andrewla wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you list a bunch of bad things that NXIVM did. How does labeling it a "cult" add or detract from that list of bad things? Sure, it did bad things. If a member were a Christian, did it force them to denounce God or renounce their hope of salvation, or to otherwise accept heretical beliefs? I am not Christian; these are not things important to me, but they are part of the operational definition of a classical cult,…

> I am not Christian; these are not things important to me, but they are part of the operational definition of a classical cult, which NXIVM is not, in that sense. Could you possibly link to this singular, authoritative (and non-contested) "operational definition of a classical cult"? > Why use the label cult? As a rhetorical device, that's fine, but don't present it to me as an absolute. Only your absolute definitio…

The thing about operational usage is that they don't need a definition, nor do they purport to be absolute, but strictly context-dependent. That's what operational means in this context. For a Christian worried about a congregant joining an organization, if they required those things then it would be considered a "cult" (also usually required here is that it be a small organization).

I do not have an absolute definition! That's my whole point! Nor do I deny yours, but only point out that the label, by itself, adds no value to the discussion, unless there's a common framework. Surely you can acknowledge that a significant number of people would require a religious belief; that's what makes the accusation against NIXVM particularly outre, because they are cult-like without a religious element, and saying they are a cult is a way to associate them with something generally found distateful.

> This is a bit inconsistent with the rest of your comment - what constitutes a cult is now subjective?

YES! A MILLION TIMES YES! On the border of the taxonomy, things get very wishy-washy -- but finding someone who says that Heaven's Gate or Jonestown are not cults would be enormously difficult. The usage of "cult" only works because we have a shared cultural experience with the notion of cult. and invoking that when referring to things like NXIVM is a rhetorical device, nothing more.

I don't get to "decide" the meaning of "cult" and neither do you! It's a word in a living language in the milieu of a society with a shared cultural heritage that carries history and connotation stretching back to before we were born. It is ultimately uninteresting to debate whether NIVMX is a cult or not because it does not make more acceptable or condemnatory their practices.

If you could make a strong statement; "they exhibited the following cult-like attributes, and in consequence, like every organization with those attributes, they also exhibited these behaviors" then you're on to something; you're doing observational sociology. But here all you're really saying is "they are super double bad", which is, okay, fine, but you can just call them fascists or communists or something else that people hate and it has the same impact.

Re: We are sorry to inform you that you are in a cult

#280

Post by lazyeye » Mon, Nov 21, 2022, 9:04 PM UTC

etchalon wrote: post #248

lazyeye wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And of course we always assign a very, very heavy weight to anyone not adhering to the narrow railroad tracks of our particular ideology. Cult-like. Honestly, the people here so desperate to find an argument for rigid ideological adherence just kind of prove my point.

You've completely missed the point.

No I havent (at all).