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The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

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Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#91

Post by giraffe_lady »

ldldldo wrote: post #79
giraffe_lady wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how…

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace. I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has be…

I mean I have been a christian all my life, and I am also unambiguously very far to the left explicitly because that is the only way I can see to truly act within my religious beliefs in the world right now. So I'm not sure how far this framework can get you, really. I certainly don't find it to have much explanatory power on any of these issues.

I also think it could be rephrased in a way that would make it easy to see how it describes the american political right, but I kind of trusted the readers to do that and didn't bother. But things like refusal to wear masks, wide-spread gun ownership, these are the "self-actualizated rights" that conservatives understand as needing no forgiveness regardless of harm caused.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#92

Post by inglor_cz »

eastbound wrote: post #5
rqtwteye wrote: post #3

The same can be said for things like diversity statements. You know exactly what you are supposed to say and any deviation will be punished . It’s just a formality you have to perform correctly.

In other words, we tell lies, to people who pretend to believe them. Everyone lies and we know it, our companies have mottos and everyone knows they’re fluff, and we teach kids to “thrive in ambiguity”, which is a beautiful phrase I’ve found on a job offer and which I have found symptomatic of our economy. I still wonder what it was like to live in ex-RDA. Did people tell lies that others pretended to believe?

I wonder if a descent to full-blown Soviet "Vranyo" (brazen lying) can be prevented.

As in: "They lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them."

Pretty much the only brake pad on that machine is that capitalism actually requires at least some efficiency from the players, and a web of lies like that will destroy any institution. But I am far from certain.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#93

Post by trgn »

mjburgess wrote: post #60
broadwaylamb wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act of kindness. I think, rather, it's the most rutheless form of grief there is. I don't see how forgiveness is ruthless. It takes great compassion to accept people and situations as they are withou…

Well, from the pov of the person being "detached", to be treated as an object is rutheless. What we are saying, after all, is that the other is "a mere product" of nature; a symptom, not an agent. This, I think, is the most "anti-Western" notion 'inside' forgiveness, and why it seems so counter-intutive. The thing we do not want to give up is that people are agents who bare responsibility for their actions, that peop…

Extending forgiveness is ruthless indeed.

Thomas Hobbes makes the following observation in leviathan, that is thoroughly depressing and at first perhaps paradoxical. A person who wronged you will only ever be able to hate you afterwards: either because of fear for your vengeance, or because of distaste for your forgiveness.

The positive action of forgiveness only applies to those who extend it; those who are forgiven are rendered impotent. it's somewhat of a manipulative act if it's not accompanied by magnanimity and reconciliation.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#94

Post by chitowneats »

uxp100 wrote: post #58
chitowneats wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ya hehe I had to be it's what reputations are made of, to some extent I feel bad for those who get f*** by it by this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shiboleths and so everyone likes us

I gotta say that removing the context from this sort of changes its meaning in a misleading way for those seeing it for the first time. It makes perfect sense in this context as well but some people have interpreted this as a sort of nihilism, but it’s actually an endorsement of pure utilitarianism, more or less. Which doesn’t make it better, my big take away from all the FTX stuff is that SBF and friends were just u…

> pure utilitarianism

> a sort of nihilism

The SBF saga is a great example of how easily the former degenerates into the latter. We're talking about someone who graduated MIT. He clearly has some amount of smarts and personal drive. "He's just a dipshit" is not an adequate explanation.

Though, yeah, he ends up a dipshit at the end of the story (presumably).

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#95

Post by SoftTalker »

seanhunter wrote: post #43
mjburgess wrote: post #4

Forgiveness as a kind of mourning makes sense, but is counter-intuitive. I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt. That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act o…

That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. This is an incredibly interesting observation. In this sense then, forgiveness is an act of kindness- to oneself. Because I have moved on, I don't need to carry the bad feeling around with me anymore.

> Because I have moved on, I don't need to carry the bad feeling around with me anymore

This is my view of forgiveness. It doesn't mean reconcile. It doesn't mean forget. It means releasing the hate or anger towards the person who has wronged you. It does not mean you forget whatever they did -- that's likely impossible. It does not mean that you will trust them again, or trust them to the same degree. It does not mean that you were the one who was wrong to have be offended or hurt by whatever it was that they did (though sometimes it's worth reflecting on that). It simply means that you have moved on, and have released yourself from the pain or anger that surrounds those memories.

Edit: The framing of forgiveness as "canceling a debt" as f154hfds posted in another subthread is a good analogy.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#96

Post by jeffskiling »

chitowneats wrote: post #94
uxp100 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I gotta say that removing the context from this sort of changes its meaning in a misleading way for those seeing it for the first time. It makes perfect sense in this context as well but some people have interpreted this as a sort of nihilism, but it’s actually an endorsement of pure utilitarianism, more or less. Which doesn’t make it better, my big take away from all the FTX stuff is that SBF and friends were just u…

> pure utilitarianism > a sort of nihilism The SBF saga is a great example of how easily the former degenerates into the latter. We're talking about someone who graduated MIT. He clearly has some amount of smarts and personal drive. "He's just a dipshit" is not an adequate explanation. Though, yeah, he ends up a dipshit at the end of the story (presumably).

No post body was provided.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#97

Post by SoftTalker »

weberer wrote: post #19
mjburgess wrote: post #4

Forgiveness as a kind of mourning makes sense, but is counter-intuitive. I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt. That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act o…

>We punish not to humiliate as an act of vengence No, I think that's exactly how the Twitter mob operates. These people treat politics as some sort of religious war.

Politics and religion aren't very far apart. In some parts of the world they are nearly the same thing. Elsewhere, the belief in deities is the main differentiator, and even there it can get blurry, based on how some supporters seem to worship their leaders almost as gods.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#98

Post by nmz »

executive wrote: post #86
nmz wrote: post #66

I've always fantasized about a facebook like dirty laundry website. basically a place where people freely and anonymously perform slander and indicate all the wrongdoings of everyone. Not unlike what we have now, but organized. It would either completely break some people, or show how incredibly hypocritical mob justice is with their public shaming.

https://thedirty.com/

This is pure internet gossip cancer... It's great. Now they just need to clean it up and be more facebook like and done.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#99

Post by SoftTalker »

f154hfds wrote: post #65

Forgiveness in the Bible is formalized as a cancelled debt: the act of forgiveness is when you decide to eat the cost of a debt owed (Matthew 18:21-35). I think forgiveness is mostly misunderstood by our society. It has several implications: 1. Forgiveness does not equate to trust or even reconciliation. If I lent you $1000 and you never paid me back, I might forgive your debt but will be much less inclined to trust…

> An apology no matter how sincere can't undo the debt either, it is usually impossible to make it right (unlike a financial debt which can be repaid).

Often illustrated as "you can't un-ring a bell"

You can sincerely regret having done something harmful, but rarely does that undo the harm.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#100

Post by nmz »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #81
nmz wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ... Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.

No it means you pretend to apologise but are really talking more shit. Everyone knows the part before the "but" is passive aggressive window dressing and means nothing.

I'm sorry but I disagree.
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