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The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

newyorker.com

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Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#71

Post by they4kman »

tremon wrote: post #55
mjburgess wrote: post #4

Forgiveness as a kind of mourning makes sense, but is counter-intuitive. I think we've come to regard "forgiveness" as inevitably ending with reconsiliation. But perhaps, more often, it shouldnt. That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. Our ability to forgive has, perhaps, been distorted by the perception that it's an act o…

That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. To me, that's more a part of the reconciliation process than of forgiveness. It doesn't require forgiveness to abandon the other and move on. I rather think that forgiveness is the first step to restore the mutual relationship, it's a willful act to salvage what was broken. I guess in my mind, reconc…

To forgive is to let go of our own disturbances about the situation, and we may choose to never tell the subject of the forgiveness. Whether we wish to continue/rebuild a relationship with the subject doesn't need to depend on whether we are undisturbed.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#72

Post by hackerlight »

themaninthedark wrote: post #6

An apology is useless if it is not accompanied by a change in behavior. Actually, worse than useless as it is an insult. I know what I am doing is wrong but I am not changing. Large public apologies are performance art.

> Large public apologies are performance art.

But this is the use, and so it isn't useless. Not everyone who compels a public apology actually cares whether the accused feels genuine remorse. They want to enforce a cultural standard because they think that cultural standard is a good thing.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#73

Post by milesvp »

1659447091 wrote: post #61
P5fRxh5kUvp2th wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

apologies are supposed to be an acknowledgement that they wronged you and letting them know you forgive them allows them to have closure so THEY can move on with their lives (emotionally). We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on. To forgive without letting the other person know is absolute…

>> but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure. I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place…

What I find interesting is the feeling of honestly forgiving. whatever the other person feels, just simply forgiving someone of some slight or wrong they may or even may not have done to you can be very cathartic. It was only recently in my life it even occurred to me to actually forgive someone rather than just saying the words.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#74

Post by eesmith »

nmz wrote: post #63
eesmith wrote: post #42

> Whose P.R.-purposed apology was worse? Al Franken’s or Louis C.K.’s? ... At SorryWatch.com and @SorryWatch, Susan McCarthy and Marjorie Ingall have been Let's take a look at what they say about those two, at https://sorrywatch.com/al-and-louie/ . Franken's first apology was a not-pology. The second is described as, on the whole, a good apology. As for Louis C.K.'s: "People! He never says he’s sorry! So many words,…

Weird, it seems the authors don't even know what an apology is or an i'm sorry is. Everyone can say "I'm Sorry" it means so many things that in reality it means nothing. Regret and admittance of wrongdoing is the point of an apology, it means the individual knows their actions were wrong, and they would take them back. That's much better than an "I'm Sorry", which usually means, "really wish you wouldn't feel so bad"…

The "regret is not apology" seems to refer to a specific type of regret. That is, https://sorrywatch.com/regret-is-not-apology-karl/ says:

> Regret is all about you; apology is all about another person’s feelings. Regret stands alone; apology reaches out to someone else. Also, shut up with the whole “regret the controversy” business. That phrase just means, “I’m irked at other people.” Regret your actions, then apologize for them. Do not say you regret other people’s responses to your being an asshole.

Note that it contains "regret" used two different ways.

Your "admittance of wrongdoing" is part of "regret your actions", while that chant concerns "regret other people’s responses".

You can see the book authors' "The Six Steps to a Good Apology" at https://sorrywatch.com/ . Your "knows their actions are wrong" is "2. Say specifically what you’re sorry FOR" and your "would take them back" is likely closest to "5. Explain the actions you’re taking to insure this won’t happen again."

(See also https://sorrywatch.com/the-parts-of-a-good-apology/ .)

Thing is, I don't think the author of the New Yorker piece really addresses the points of the book, but instead uses it as a stepping stone to a very different interpretation of the topic, and lumping the book into a lumpy mishmash of religion and Twitter mobs.

Which that book ... doesn't seem to be about.

The web site gives an example of a good apology that Lincoln gave to Grant, at https://sorrywatch.com/when-lincoln-was-wrong/ , and commentary on Grant's poor apology for ordering the expulsion of Jews from the Department of Tennessee, followed by his actions which help make up for that apology.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#76

Post by yanderekko »

jmull wrote: post #52
i_am_proteus wrote: post #8

Insincerity should be the expected outcome from bullying people via socioeconomic pressure into making public apologies. Forcing someone to make a public statement via explicit or implicit threat of loss of income or ostracization is playground politics for adults.

If you make your money based on how popular you are, you are going to lose money, one way or another, if you start pissing off lots of people. Bullying and playground politics just isn't the right way to think about this. Kyrie, e.g., put the economic pressure on himself. Nike sells shoes. They don't want to pay him anymore because he can't sell shoes nearly as well now, and might impact their ability to sell shoes l…

Yes, and? Again, this is just an explanation of why one should expect insincere apologies - because the apology is being made for financial reasons, not genuine contrition.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#77

Post by yanderekko »

tenpies wrote: post #13
rqtwteye wrote: post #3

The same can be said for things like diversity statements. You know exactly what you are supposed to say and any deviation will be punished . It’s just a formality you have to perform correctly.

The problem is that a non-trivial segment of the population does believe it with zealous devotion. They've attended the diversity seminaries, taken the oaths, and there is no off-ramp for their faith. The other problem is politicians cannot differentiate between performative displays and actual values. The end result is that you see diversity quotas elevated above all other priorities and criteria.

>The problem is that a non-trivial segment of the population does believe it with zealous devotion

Yes, but the diversity statements are not meant to separate the ordained from the masses, it's to ensure that actual heretics (or just those who are not properly accultured to understand what constitutes a transgression of social justice etiquette) are filtered.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#78

Post by d4mi3n »

chasd00 wrote: post #46
tdehnel wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgiveness: Making a big deal about how great you are for not judging someone, making it all about you. I forgive you . Grace: Getting on with your life and not letting yourself get caught up in someone else’s moral failings. You do you .

I can see how forgiveness can be weaponized like that but to me forgiveness is only there to benefit the forgiver. Granted, getting good at forgiveness risks you just becoming a door mat. Similarly, Getting good at grace risks you becoming naive and ignorant to the world around you.

How does this dynamic of grace vs forgiveness interact with genuine feelings of guilt?

There are times in life where we (or people around us) fuck up. Genuine remorse occurs and receiving forgiveness can bring closure as it can signal that a relationship with someone is still there.

I think assuming forgiveness is a one-way interaction may be true in some contexts, but not all.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#79

Post by ldldldo »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #53
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #16

Whoever figures out a secular distillation of the concept of grace is going to be very, very successful in community-building. The lack of it is painfully apparent, and it offers something to both the accused and the accusers. Now, whether people actually want that from others in these cases, or are merely enjoying the use of power a little too much, is another discussion.

I genuinely don't think it's compatible with contemporary western morality that holds that actions are either valid expressions of self-actualization and so require no apology, or are transgressions for which no forgiveness is possible. The idea that regardless of a person's "right" to make a certain choice, an action can be so harmful that it cannot be corrected, but also that it can be forgiven is too far from how…

This is true, but "contemporary" isn't the right adjective. This is the culture of the moralist left, of the blue cities, of the Coast, of Progressivism as the only moral ideology

In the US, at least, if you engage with conservative culture, with Christians, with rural people, with the people who are tired of "cancel culture," you will still find plenty of grace.

I'm an independent. Over the last few years, it has been entirely Coastal people who have cut me out of their lives for things like saying I think the EcoHealth Alliance might have had something to do with COVID-19. The ones left in my life are the ones that know how to give grace.

Sure, this is anecdotal, but it's cultural commentary.

And to throw a bone and not pick too much on one side of the culture war, the Red areas have their own pathologies. For instance, while they won't necessarily stop talking to you altogether if you do something wrong, but lots of them will spread shit about you all over the community if you do.

Maybe everyone could stand to listen to Christ on this topic, whether or not they believe in him in so many words

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#80

Post by tsylba »

Once a media is accepted and known by the multitude it becomes performative, a spectacle where authenticity vanished preempted by new social rules. Beaudrillard's hyperreality describes the situation where we don't live in reality anymore but in the image of the reality we build, akin to an AI learning from data generated by another AI. It seems our current internet culture - heavily centralized, and universally used - is hyperreal, a performative space bound by rules of how to act, how to be accepted, what to say and not to say. In this kind of constructs I believe authenticity vanishes.

I wonder how we might prevent this things to happen. I suspect it's linked with demography and popularity, something something Dunbar's number related.

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