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The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

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Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that. I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provi…

apologies are supposed to be an acknowledgement that they wronged you and letting them know you forgive them allows them to have closure so THEY can move on with their lives (emotionally). We use it as the grease between the wheels for smaller things because we can't know what's in each others heads. And for larger things, it allows both parties to move on. To forgive without letting the other person know is absolute…

>> but my point is that I viewed her apology as selfish and would have preferred she never got that closure.

I have never believed one could receive forgiveness from another. Forgiveness comes from the self. In order to move on - from guilt or harm - we must forgive ourselves. Forgive our guilt, our shame, our self-blame; whatever we blame ourselves for our part in it - even if that part was being in the wrong place at the wrong time or trusting the wrong person. Forgiving only the other person doesn't solve the real harm we do to ourselves. I think it's an overlooked part of healing.

I understand the desire to want her to suffer for the hurt she caused your brother. However, in this context, I see it as her giving herself closure from the guilt by sending the apology. Acknowledgment from the other is not necessary (but maybe would have been nice); she had done all that was in her control.

Instead of giving the power to another or waiting for them to maybe provide closure, giving it to ourselves is the most healing thing we can do - no matter which side of the offense we are on.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#62
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is, forgiveness is how I see the other when I see them not as an enemy or friend, but as a tragic part of nature. I have moved on. This is an incredibly interesting observation. In this sense then, forgiveness is an act of kindness- to oneself. Because I have moved on, I don't need to carry the bad feeling around with me anymore.

I suppose that also aligns when someone seeks forgiveness, they want the forgiver to move on and not hold a grudge.

No, they want to feel better about themselves but feel like they can't unless the other person forgives them.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#63
post #42

> Whose P.R.-purposed apology was worse? Al Franken’s or Louis C.K.’s? ... At SorryWatch.com and @SorryWatch, Susan McCarthy and Marjorie Ingall have been Let's take a look at what they say about those two, at https://sorrywatch.com/al-and-louie/ . Franken's first apology was a not-pology. The second is described as, on the whole, a good apology. As for Louis C.K.'s: "People! He never says he’s sorry! So many words,…

Weird, it seems the authors don't even know what an apology is or an i'm sorry is. Everyone can say "I'm Sorry" it means so many things that in reality it means nothing. Regret and admittance of wrongdoing is the point of an apology, it means the individual knows their actions were wrong, and they would take them back. That's much better than an "I'm Sorry", which usually means, "really wish you wouldn't feel so bad" or "lets move past this".

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#64

An apology is useless if it is not accompanied by a change in behavior. Actually, worse than useless as it is an insult. I know what I am doing is wrong but I am not changing. Large public apologies are performance art.

Apologies don't necessarily imply wrongdoing. An apology can be issued to acknowledge inconvenience or understanding, or to indicate someone is being heard. You can apologize for not changing or for disagreeing.

Example: "I'm sorry to say this but" ...

Means you acknowledge the hurt saying something will cause but you still need to say it. because it needs to be said.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#65
Forgiveness in the Bible is formalized as a cancelled debt: the act of forgiveness is when you decide to eat the cost of a debt owed (Matthew 18:21-35). I think forgiveness is mostly misunderstood by our society. It has several implications:

1. Forgiveness does not equate to trust or even reconciliation. If I lent you $1000 and you never paid me back, I might forgive your debt but will be much less inclined to trust you with my money in the future.

2. Forgiveness absolutely does not necessitate repentance of the perpetrator. In the Bible forgiveness is a necessity regardless of the situation because the Bible treats the inability of a Christian to forgive the ultimate hypocrisy (Matthew 6:14-15).

3. Wronging another person (or yourself - this might be far more common) does tangible harm to them. This harm is analogous to a financial debt owed. This debt is on the cosmic books so to speak: it's very real and must be dealt with either by forgiveness or retributive justice (or a combination of the two). Restorative justice is important but can't fix the original debt.

4. An apology no matter how sincere can't undo the debt either, it is usually impossible to make it right (unlike a financial debt which can be repaid). Society misses this at its own peril: forgiveness trumps apologies every time, this is the nature of wrongdoing. If anything we downplay how hard it is to make things right! As if a few well chosen words and humiliation could undo Will Smith's Slap? It can't work because it doesn't go back in time and change history to make the thing not happen!

5. Repentance makes it easier to forgive (it enables the victim and the perpetrator to meet in the middle), but it's always going to be hard to tell if repentance is genuine. See point 2.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#66
I've always fantasized about a facebook like dirty laundry website. basically a place where people freely and anonymously perform slander and indicate all the wrongdoings of everyone. Not unlike what we have now, but organized. It would either completely break some people, or show how incredibly hypocritical mob justice is with their public shaming.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The person who is forgiven doesn't need to know they are forgiven. Even if they are told, the feeling of freedom and the actual forgiveness comes before that. I was with you until this last bit. My experience is that people will beg for forgiveness. Even if you forgive them, you’ll then find it’s reconciliation they were after. They will then ignore your forgiveness, or rather continue asking for it until you provi…

It seems like you may fundamentally agree with the person you are replying to. The person who is forgiven may feel they need to know they are forgiven, but that doesn't mean they actually do. Your example of someone who really wants reconciliation, and has confused it with forgiveness, seems like a good case of someone not actually needing to know they are forgiven, because it's not what they really want or care abou…

Good point, this may be the case.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#68
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note to down voters: this is a (relevant) direct quote from SBF's interview in Vox. [0] [0] https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/23462333/sam-bankman-frie...

Whoa, this guys is a straight up sociopath

Which would make him perfect CEO material too.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you may fundamentally agree with the person you are replying to. The person who is forgiven may feel they need to know they are forgiven, but that doesn't mean they actually do. Your example of someone who really wants reconciliation, and has confused it with forgiveness, seems like a good case of someone not actually needing to know they are forgiven, because it's not what they really want or care abou…

Good point, this may be the case.

Yes, I think so. Half of my point may be that as, eg., jealous (defensive) has been conflated with envy (offensive); and as social-emotional language appears to have somewhat degraded (where is, today, 'guilt' ?)... likewise, we have conflated forgiveness with reconsiliation.

Where perhaps, in a recent past, to be forgiven was more obviously "to be released from the burden of mattering, one way or another".

A few might, then, genuinely want forgiveness because they feel guilt that you still hate them. But many moreso feel no guilt, what they want is to be reconsiled. To be judged positive and worthwhile.

If this transition has occured, it would line up with the guilt->shame, envy-jealousy, etc. transitions. It would be a co-opting of noble language (genuinely wishing forgiveness) for ignoble selfish reasons (wishing reconsiliation).

I find this thesis prima fascie plausible, in that I feel under-educated in the nobility of guilt, the dangers of envy, and the purpose of forgiveness. An education, i'd say, my great-grandparents certainly had.

Re: The case against the Twitter apology and our culture of performed remorse

#70

Has anybody well-known ever used a phrase like "For my own personal safety, I apologize for XYZ transgression" when apologizing to a Twitter mob? Kind of curious how that simultaneous apology and subtle call-out might work.

That'd make no sense to do. The "Twitter mob" remains angry and now a few more people are annoyed that you openly gave a non-apology.
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