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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#521

Post by [deleted] »

ivraatiems wrote: post #228
jzb wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Can we just admit this isn't about logic or statistics, and never was? It was always a persuasion game either way." Kind of? The fact is that we've turned into a society where we can't even be unified in trying to prevent disease. If "the left" is for vaccines, masking, social distancing, etc. then "the right" has to immediately be against it. I don't recall any of my friends or family needing persuasion at all. The…

> I don't recall any of my friends or family needing persuasion at all. They believed in the science and were willing to adapt as we learned new things about COVID (e.g. around masking and social distancing). And now that science shows the vaccines have risks that weren't clear before, will this change how they feel about them, or are they going to stick to their preconceived ideas? Did they believe the science becau…

[deleted]

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#522

Post by nradov »

tzs wrote: post #484
munk-a wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest a slight shift in wording from "how much medical care actually costs" to "how much medical care actually bills" since as we've seen both by examining the meteoric raise in healthcare billing from 1930s-today and by comparing the US health system to single payer systems abroad it's pretty clear that the billing for US medications, procedures, therapies and other healthcare items is completely fabricate…

It's probably more complicated than that. When you compare US costs to countries like the UK, France, Germany, Japan, and similar it is indeed true that US is significantly more expensive. It is also true that over time US costs are rising significantly. However, the ratio of US costs to the costs of other countries has stayed roughly the same over time. In other words, the rest of them are having the same problem of…

The majority of healthcare spending goes toward treating patients with chronic conditions primarily caused by lifestyle factors such as overeating, lack of exercise, and substance abuse. There is effectively infinite demand for healthcare services in that population. Depending on how you count, something like 1/7 of all healthcare dollars go to type-2 diabetes and related conditions alone.

There is certainly some inefficiency in the US healthcare system but mostly it reflects the poor health of the population. Switching to some form of socialized medicine won't fix that problem. Other developed countries are doing a little better at the moment but they're on the same trend line and will inevitably hit the same crisis. At some point if we want to prevent a systemic collapse we're going to have to get serious about emphasizing prevention over treatment.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#523

Post by bsder »

robomartin wrote: post #13

One of my kids, 15 at the time, was one of the reported cases of myocarditis. At the time of his hospitalization he was one out of 700 cases. He was in the hospital for two weeks. While under observation after his release, we have not seen indications of lasting damage. No way to know what the future holds. So far, so good. We are still not anti-vax at all. In fact, I might go for my next booster today. The one thing…

> Obamacare, which was forced upon us and costs us $2,400 PER MONTH, did not cover it. We have no recourse whatsoever for this incident and any future care requirements.

Calling this out as bullshit. Show me a reference.

You can get a PLATINUM plan on the California exchanges for less than that for a family--and your co-pay for everything will be under $250.

I would also like to point out that "myocarditis" qualifies as a preexisting condition. Without Obamacare, your child would never be able to get health insurance at all.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#524

Post by 90d »

tanseydavid wrote: post #520
adolph wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is someone a conspiracy theorist if they conjecture about conspiracies or because they conspire with others to promote a theory?

The term Conspiracy Theorist is a slur and a pejorative in the vast majority of cases where it is applied. Conjecturing about whether or not a particular situation might be explained by a conspiracy does NOT make one into a Conspiracy Theorist. The term Conspiracy Theorist would accurately describe someone who makes a living at it -- like Alex Jones or David Icke.

I don't think either of them are allowed to make a living

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#525

Post by toast0 »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #296
ceejayoz wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People just don't understand what their plan's deductibles mean, and the protections the ACA offers. The parent poster likely benefits from the following items on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act : > Annual and lifetime coverage caps on essential benefits were banned. > Insurers are forbidden from dropping policyholders when they become ill. > All policies must provide an annual maximum out-of-p…

The problem field is slighty different: if your income is constrained and you are generally in good health you are going to choose a low premium plan with consequent higher deductible. When it's your turn to end up in hospital you get to pay up to the (substantial for you) out-of-pocket limit, even though you belong to the demographic that cannot afford it and Obamacare was sold to you as making healthcare affordable…

Adding up the premiums plus the out-or-pocket max for the plan options that had my providers on my exchange, the low premium option was the least expensive, despite its higher deductable.

The low premium option is the least cost option if you don't use much healthcare, or if you use a lot; but there's a range somewhere in there where the higher premium plan may lower your total costs. Of course, if you're getting a premium subsidy, the calculation changes.

But yeah, Obama promised access to healthcare and delivered access to healthcare insurance. It's not unuseful, but it's not really enough.

If it were up to me, I'd lower the medicare eligibility age every year, and gradually grow the system, a couple decades later we'd have Medicare for All (ish, not all seniors are eligible).

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#526

Post by Supermancho »

thrown_22 wrote: post #428
mikysco wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The obvious explanation for other country's vaccine recommendations is based in data. COVID kills the elderly (75+) who are more likely to be battling multiple negative health conditions beyond COVID. https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#demographicsoverti...

> The obvious explanation for other country's vaccine recommendations is based in data. COVID kills the elderly (75+) who are more likely to be battling multiple negative health conditions beyond COVID. That something so obvious was enough to get you labeled a conspiracy theorist and banned off all major social media for close to two years has set back trust in science by decades.

The assumption that this isn't accounted for in basic analysis is pretty far-fetched.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#527

Post by sfteus »

Izkata wrote: post #426
UncleOxidant wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear a lot of anti-vaxy stuff about how the spike protein is damaging in itself (implying that you shouldn't get the vaccine because you'll have spike proteins flowing around in your blood), but they seem to ignore the fact that when you get actual covid the virus is multiplying in your cells and spike proteins are more widespread and more numerous. I see the argument here in this thread that the vaccine isn't real…

You're missing part of the argument: Vaccine-generated spike protein is free-floating, while virus-generated spike protein is attached to the virus. The free-floating spike protein is a lot smaller than the virus, so it can get a lot more places, and while some will break off of the virus and become free-floating it wouldn't be in anywhere near as large amounts as vaccine-generated spike protein.

It's been a while since I've looked at the ins-and-outs of the immune system, but doesn't this basically not hold up to scrutiny? Again, correct me if I'm wrong:

A) The general method of action of the vaccines is that the mRNA enters a cell (generally dendritic cells), the cell transcribes it into the spike protein, then the cell detects something off about the proteins and presents them on their cell wall for the immune system to respond to. The proteins aren't just "free floating" unless your immune response is

B) The likelihood of an immune response to an active infection never doing the same thing with cells that contain partially constructed virons / viron components, or achieving the same effect by breaking down full virons, is basically zero. So it's almost certain that an active infection would have "free-floating" proteins in some capacity as well.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#528

Post by Supermancho »

thrwy_918 wrote: post #354
robomartin wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A two week hospital stay is orders of magnitude more than $10k, so presumably the $10k representes the out of pocket portion of the care. No, that's not the case at all. We had to negotiate with the hospital and settled for this amount. The ACA covered none of it or a very small portion. I don't remember the actual bill, my wife dealt with all of it (she is a doctor and knows how to discuss such things with hospital…

> The ACA covered none of it or a very small portion The ACA is not an insurance plan, so I assume you are using "ACA" as shorthand for "ACA-compliant insurance coverage". It is simply not plausible that an ACA-compliant plan would wholesale "not cover" a hospital stay for myocarditis, absent extremely niche and bizarre circumstances. Given that you don't seem very familiar with the specifics, I have to assume that y…

> It is simply not plausible that an ACA-compliant plan would wholesale "not cover" a hospital stay for myocarditis

As a lifelong heart patient, I've had many post-operative stays not covered, past a certain duration regardless of my current condition and I've always paid for the highest tiers of health coverage (for over 2 decades now). I find it very likely that ACA would not cover" a hospital stay for myocarditis.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#529

Post by nomel »

nomel wrote: post #424
jjcon wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?

Clearly, the flu shots are fairly established science (1945, 77 years), of a well researched virus. They're not a new form of vaccine delivery, pushed through on an emergency basis, with exclusions to testing, with legal protection against any damages for those exclusions, and 70 year trial document release plans. Could you help me understand why you think the context is so similar between the two? What's your opinio…

After re-reading this thread, the angle of this comment wasn't warranted. I apologize.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#530

Post by munk-a »

tzs wrote: post #484
munk-a wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would suggest a slight shift in wording from "how much medical care actually costs" to "how much medical care actually bills" since as we've seen both by examining the meteoric raise in healthcare billing from 1930s-today and by comparing the US health system to single payer systems abroad it's pretty clear that the billing for US medications, procedures, therapies and other healthcare items is completely fabricate…

It's probably more complicated than that. When you compare US costs to countries like the UK, France, Germany, Japan, and similar it is indeed true that US is significantly more expensive. It is also true that over time US costs are rising significantly. However, the ratio of US costs to the costs of other countries has stayed roughly the same over time. In other words, the rest of them are having the same problem of…

Speaking as someone intimately familiar with healthcare pricing working really close to the industry specifically in pricing tracking - I can say yes - you aren't incorrect about the fact that healthcare costs going up over time (and the sibling comment about unhealthy lifestyles also isn't incorrect) but the US does indeed have completely arbitrary pricing.

As a personal anecdote when I lived in the US there were three months in a row where I paid 10/pill, 3/pill and 1/pill (I also had earlier paid 0/pill when I qualified for VT medicaid) for the same medication[1] as I was 1) initially uninsured 2) covered by the "cigna preferred rate" but otherwise had no drug coverage 3) had regular drug coverage. As a bonus a few months after that run a generic for my medication came out and I paid .10/pill for the brand name because the generic existed but they didn't have it in stock.

Please explain how that makes any sense at all.

1. Concerta - the 54mg version now apparently retails for $545 per 30 here's a weird website talking about it (I now live in Canada and while there isn't Pharmacare in my province the drug is free with some cheap insurance) https://www.singlecare.com/blog/concerta-without-insurance/

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