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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#511

Post by roflyear »

throwaway09223 wrote: post #139
thrwy_918 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obamacare, which was forced upon us and costs us $2,400 PER MONTH, did not cover it Can you expand on this please? I find it extremely hard to understand how an ACA-compliant health care plan could "not cover" a hospital stay for myocarditis. Unless you're on a high-deductible plan and the entire stay was less than your deductible?

A two week hospital stay is orders of magnitude more than $10k, so presumably the $10k representes the out of pocket portion of the care. I suspect the maximum annual out of pocket.

My zero deductible Obamacare plan is $400/m for just me. I imagine OP has like five kids??

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#512

Post by xracy »

dekhn wrote: post #464
xracy wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want my "appeal to numbers" argument, you can see it all over this thread. It seems like I'm getting a continual -2 on votes for all of my arguments just cause I'm coming off as "pro-vaccine". So it doesn't actually seem to matter what appeals I make. Also though, I don't really believe I'm changing anyone's mind on this. I'm just inviting people consider the humanity of things like "child deaths". Which, is m…

I have a couple kids (teens). I'm worried about many other things, not COVID; it's just far down on my list of things that I consider active risks to my children that I have the power to impact. I don't really have time to cross reference all your different comments, but when you post a comment that is just appeal to emotion, I tend to mention it.

I mean, it's definitely the kind of good constructive criticism that really helps improve the discussion.

In all honesty, I will say that pointing out rhetorical styles is probably the least constructive internet discussion you can have. Mostly because even if you can point to a logical fallacy, doing so doesn't negate the underlying argument unless you can actually explain it.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#513

Post by jessaustin »

PuppyTailWags wrote: post #364
Grim-444 wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't we already in that same situation every year/decade prior to covid when between 20,000 and 50,000 would die from the flu each year? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_influenza_statis...

I think 20k/50k + an additional 100k from covid is pretty nasty, so I don't think it's the same at all. It's not like flu and covid are the same disease. I'm thinking covid will just add tens of thousands (or up to 100k like GP said). Sucks.

These groups intersect, so we can't just add the two numbers.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#514

Post by jessaustin »

Izkata wrote: post #294
no_butterscotch wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "next" booster is referring to the updated vaccine that more effectively targets the dominant "Omicron" variant. Ah thanks for the context. I've only gotten the J&J vax (the worst one?) back in April of 2021, no boosters. I considered getting one but by then they were recommending boosters every few months and I decided to just "risk" it by not getting them? (I'm in my 30s and in good shape/health so don't feel…

> I've only gotten the J&J vax (the worst one?) Back in those first few months I was keeping an eye on reports of side-effects, and J&J actually looked like the safest of the 4 available in the US. But it and AstraZeneca got absolutely vilified while any claims against Pfizer and Moderna got ignored as crazy conspiracies.

Pfizer and Moderna have better PR departments.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#515

Post by savryn »

digdugdirk wrote: post #461
savryn wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

watching eric go through his arc of disillusionment in public, despite all his sincerity and hopefulness and intelligence was really sobering for me. A lot of us have this inner "oh if only I was a better speaker / smarter / worked on my persuasion skills ..." It's just not how power works. It's not how society works. I get that now, and it was amazing anthropology to see it unfold.

Mind explaining what you mean by his arc of disillusionment? I don't follow the guy, my only recollection of him is from listening to him on a podcast about some wild "physics theory of everything" a while back. I recall it being one of those "I'm not sure if I'm an idiot, or he's crazy, but this sure is a fun ride" kinds of experiences.

“The idealism of every era is usually the cover story of its greatest thefts.”

this is my favorite eric quote, which he also just applied to the ftx mess.

Eric's way of seeing things isn't a linear thing I can summarize, there's a few youtube vids you can search for the concepts of Kayfabe or his anger at the Consumer Price Index methodology which he's been making noise about for a decade, way before all the cool kids today tweeting about inflation.

It's about seeing narrative frames and language games that institutions play to intrinsically hide (to others and themselves) the mechanics of power/money. If you believe in beautiful liberal middle-class dreams it's really painful to square with reality of those machines.

He calls his own podcast The Portal because to see these patterns you need that moment where you step out of the calcified frame of current understanding, like in those kids books where youre stuck in a drab deadened state and then find a magical portal to narnia, can return transformed.

(You have to have those moments yourself, it usually feels like a loss of innocence imo)

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#516

Post by wwweston »

francisduvivier wrote: post #435
wwweston wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of daylight between "recommendations for some higher age groups, no recommendation for lower age groups" and "recommendation against for lower age groups." The international recommendations cited above seem to be in the former category. Florida's recommendations seem to be in the latter. This might make them an outlier. Whether it makes them conspiracy theorists is another matter. If their position is s…

Have you read this exception in the link you posted: - "with one exception. Men under 40 who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a higher risk of myocarditis followingvaccination. The Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines are available in the U.S." I'd say it's worth a mention. But then it's also quite an unfair comparison if you compare the all the vaccinated against a filtered group of unvaccinated people.

I read that passage as "men who received a second dose of the Moderna vaccine had a very modest increased risk of myocarditis over those who both did not receive such a dose and remain (apparently) uninfected" -- eg, it's possible that specific intervention slightly increases absolute risk of myocarditis vs whatever group can avoid both vaccination and infection indefinitely (a group I suspect is not large).

It's also possible I'm not reading it correctly, but I'm not sure how else to square it with the observation that men have higher baseline and post-covid-infection myocarditis risks generally (and covid patients have something like 10-20x elevated risks of myocarditis).

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#517

Post by BrainVirus »

oezi wrote: post #485
cerradokids wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get that data? According to this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ there is no increase in Myocarditis cases among unvaccinated people who have contracted Covid-19. This study tracked 196,992 people which is a huge number, so the data here is quite good and clear. Contracting Covid-19 does not put you at increased risk for Myocarditis, the same cannot be said when evaluating a population t…

Well 200k is not very much. The German vaccine watchdog issue a warning letter because there were roughly 300 cases in total reported for the approx. 200m doses administered until May 2021 in the entire EU. Myocarditis/pericarditis are very rare and the effects for young people were mild.

There is no such thing as "mild" heart damage.

Moreover, clinical myocarditis and pericarditis are only tips of the iceberg:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vveMHtVk_mY

People who have no significant symptoms can still have troponin in their blood, indicating damage.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#518

Post by xracy »

halfjoking wrote: post #374
UncleOxidant wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't he risk of myocarditis actually higher if you get infected with covid compared with getting a covid vaccine? https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-...

That's what the CDC claims now. Earlier in pandemic 196k post Covid patients were monitored a year... "We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/

Did they also monitor the group of post covid patients who died from covid?

i.e. I would think that number has significant survivorship bias.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#519

Post by _ea1k »

_ea1k wrote: post #327
no_butterscotch wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are still not anti-vax at all. In fact, I might go for my next booster today. I'm curious about this. In my world COVID is over now. I live in San Francisco. Nobody I know is getting boosters or is worried about it anymore. Where do you live and what are the circumstances like there that you're considering getting your "next" one? (you've been boosted before?).

TBH, I tend to agree. Vaccines are readily available and most of us have been exposed to COVID at some point. By this point, there is little reason for behavior modification. The boosters likely make sense for some people, but there's little real data on their effectiveness. Outside of the more vulnerable, I'd avoid them personally. The proof just isn't readily available of continuous boosters being worth it to me.

I'd love it if the downvoters could point me to effectiveness data on the new targeted booster.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#520

Post by tanseydavid »

adolph wrote: post #269
wwweston wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of daylight between "recommendations for some higher age groups, no recommendation for lower age groups" and "recommendation against for lower age groups." The international recommendations cited above seem to be in the former category. Florida's recommendations seem to be in the latter. This might make them an outlier. Whether it makes them conspiracy theorists is another matter. If their position is s…

Is someone a conspiracy theorist if they conjecture about conspiracies or because they conspire with others to promote a theory?

The term Conspiracy Theorist is a slur and a pejorative in the vast majority of cases where it is applied.

Conjecturing about whether or not a particular situation might be explained by a conspiracy does NOT make one into a Conspiracy Theorist.

The term Conspiracy Theorist would accurately describe someone who makes a living at it -- like Alex Jones or David Icke.

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