My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal • Hacker News Board

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#191

Post by JohnBooty » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #141

JohnBooty wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I blame everything but the lawyers. A functional and just legal system depends on both parties having effective legal representation. Our current system falls far short of that ideal but I never feel that lawyers are the issue. It's the system itself, as well as the Zenimaxes and Martys of the world, that I blame.

Sure, but how are those stalling tactics and threat-laden scare letters “effective legal representation” and not just bullying the little guy?

I think we both hate those toxic, bullying behaviors.

But lawyers don't do those things on their own. They're doing it at the express direction of ZeniMax. They may even be direct employees of Zenimax, who knows.

I'm not totally absolving lawyers from blame, but they're much closer to being a symptom than the problem.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#192

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:03 PM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #178

This Mick Gordon guy has to be the most patient, understanding and abuse-tolerant person on the planet. Even after getting screwed over 30 times in a row he still was hopeful for a reasonable ending. I express that as a compliment, even if in the real world it works against you. It's not the main topic, but I like to call out attention to this: "incidences of online abuse escalated at an alarming rate as Marty’s Redd…

> I'm strongly against authoritarian overreach and used to consider trolling a "fact of life", nothing requiring intervention. I no longer believe that. We're talking about a disappointing audio track for a stupid game yet the man and his family have to fear for their lives.

This is hardly the first incident like this and not even close to the worst. Remember when Reddit decided they knew who the Boston Marathon bomber was, and got his friends and family harassed so bad that the FBI had to go on TV and give away sensitive case information just so they'd see how wrong they were and knock it off?

Or maybe how Near was harassed for being a harmless non-binary furry until they committed suicide?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Mick's been through some shit, but if it took you this long to realize that maybe the "trolls" of today aren't the cuddly affectionate clowns of the previous millennium then you really weren't paying attention.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#193

Post by brightball » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:10 PM UTC

tpxl wrote: post #184

brightball wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This probably marks me as someone unsuited for contract work, or too difficult to work with as a contractor, ete, and that is fine by me! This actually makes you an ideal contractor, you just have to know how to do this tactfully. The real issue with this situation is working as a contractor on a single project. At the point you're working for one client, full time, as a contractor...you're an employee. If you've g…

> The real issue with this situation is working as a contractor on a single project. At the point you're working for one client, full time, as a contractor...you're an employee. I disagree. I currently work as a contractor for one company more or less fully time. Because I'm a contractor, not an employee, I get to choose my hardware and OS, my own hours, I can take vacation when I want and most importantly, the emplo…

I suppose I should have said, “You have to be able to walk away.”

For some people, that will mean multiple clients. For others, it might just be self confidence or good savings.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#194

Post by gausswho » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:11 PM UTC

fluoridation wrote: post #138

gausswho wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember bouncing off DOOM Eternal after a couple hours because all its clever new mechanics were oddly anti-fun and puzzly resource management. Like the creators didn't know what made the predecessor special. I was confused and stopped playing a couple hours in. So I watched the Noclip hoping to understand the design choices better. Marty was disgustingly smug and assured about it all, coming across like a victim…

I bought the 2016 release at full price like within the first month of its release and decided to skip Eternal when I heard several reviews mention you had to ration ammo. Few things annoy me more than shooters that don't let you shoot as much as you want. Hell, every time I replay DOOM 2016 the first thing I upgrade is ammo all the way, and only then do I even consider upgrading health or armor.

Yeah that game loop was what I loved too. It was brainless in the ways I enjoyed, made you feel like a Doom Guy. It was as hard as you wanted, in that vein of game. Eternal was a brave subversion that just didn't suit the origins of the franchise. Maybe they won some crossover fans, but I'm not convinced the trade was worth it.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#195

Post by somuchfordonor » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

filoleg wrote: post #157

randomNumber7 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But John Carmack is such a great programmer. How can these people be assholes? /s

John Carmack had no hand in DOOM (2016), and was out of iD Software for quite a while by that point, so I have no idea why you felt the need to bring him up.

> so I have no idea why you felt the need to bring him up.

This is what we are lampooning.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#196

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:13 PM UTC

thefz wrote: post #68

In case we need another example to why Reddit moderation needs... moderation: Attempting to remove the Reddit post myself I’d had enough. I grew tired of having the respect I afforded Marty, and his employer, with attempts to resolve the dispute privately, get turned into a giant waste of time, effort and money. The Reddit post had been up for 15 months and attempts to resolve the dispute with Marty had gotten me now…

> Please remain civil, don't send hate mail and death threats (I've already gotten some myself). Last I checked this is a fan community where official people sometimes post, and none of the mod team were involved directly in the issue at hand (aside from the noted post removal)

Holy hell even the Reddit mods now get death threats.

That's what happens when abusive, toxic people aren't kicked out of online communities the first time they spread abuse around - they learn that their behavior has no consequences and, as a result, escalate.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/Doom/comments/yqjvzu/comment/ivppq8...

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#197

Post by bombcar » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:15 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #175

bombcar wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because six figures is cheap compared to all the other things they pay for. It happens way more than you think.

And yet, they tried their damnedest to screw Mick out of a similar amount of money. Which leads me to believe this isn't cheap for them at all.

Different times, different problems.

I've seen companies spend tens of hours of multiple employee's time to reduce a one-time cost by $1k, and then because of that reduction spend $10k elsewhere.

Not my budget, not my problem.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#198

Post by MichaelZuo » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:16 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #133

cragfar wrote: post #127

I don't do much contract work or deal with the video game industry at all, so I'm wondering was Mick just being overly understanding here about the payment issues? Someone refusing to pay me for work would instantly shut down any work I do with them. And my head nearly exploded when I read the part about how they secretly published a soundtrack that they didn't pay for, and then agreed to be pay for it only if he did…

Delayed or never received payments are common for video game freelancers. Most projects fail, and so the likelihood you don't get paid out for a portion of your work is very high. You just have to eat it and set your rates accordingly. iD/Zennimax are big enough there's no excuse here, but as far as mentality anyone that's been freelancing in games has probably crossed over into this territory of just hoping the clie…

If it’s so common why don’t the well known freelancers insist on upfront payments?

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#199

Post by tpxl » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:17 PM UTC

bombcar wrote: post #162

brightball wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very valid statement, but at the same time you have to be prepared for it if you plan to be a contractor anyway. You need your own agreements. You need somebody to review agreements presented to you. If there are IP concerns you need to have clear legal language present around that as well. To get there, it's worth it to network in attorney circles. It's well worth it.

Yeah, it absolutely surprises me the number of people who will work with custom contracts and don't even know the name of a lawyer. It's one thing if you're signing the bog-standard real estate deal paperwork, it's another if you're doing custom contracts related to work.

> It's one thing if you're signing the bog-standard real estate deal paperwork

There are no standard contracts, and there are especially no standard contracts you're signing for the first time.

I have a 'custom' contract with a company I work for and it's 4 pages long and easy to understand.

Re: My full statement regarding DOOM Eternal

#200

Post by mschuster91 » Wed, Nov 09, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

sasas wrote: post #176

It's all "who said what" until Mick shows screenshots of timestamps embedded in the audio files - direct proof that Marty outright lied. This could be important if there is any litigation made against Mick for this post if they attempt to destroy him financially by going to court.

> This could be important if there is any litigation made against Mick for this post if they attempt to destroy him financially by going to court.

The problem is, every lawsuit - even if the facts are on your side - still has a chance of going belly-up at least partially and making you responsible for even a part of the opposing party's lawyer costs as judges have quite a bit of leeway in many jurisdictions on distributing cost between parties. Big companies routinely abuse this threat scenario because they know 99% of people can't afford paying big lawyer companies that earn five digits an hour.