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Just don’t

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Re: Just don’t

#321

Post by BeetleB »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #112
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you're complaining to me about your chronic condition then I will feel compelled to give you advice on things that I think might help you. Heh, I have to admit I chuckled at that one. To be honest, I felt somewhat similarly earlier in my life. In all seriousness, I highly recommend group therapy. You will discover that no matter how much you feel "compelled" to give advice in moments when people are looking for…

You're sort of changing the subject to an easier situation. There is a big difference between a group gathering for therapy, and having someone engage you in 'conversation' where they're cornering you to complain about their ailment.

I think you misunderstand group therapy.

Re: Just don’t

#322

Post by imknewhere »

coldpie wrote: post #41
mbreese wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people don’t want you to solve their issues. They just want you to listen and understand them. If someone asks for advice, that’s another thing entirely. But I’ve learned over the years that just listening and appreciating what someone else is feeling is the most helpful thing you can do.

This is one of those personality differences that I find utterly fascinating. I think you're right that most people feel the way you say, but I feel the exact opposite! If I'm talking about a problem, it's because I haven't figured out how to solve it and would be happy for ideas. Otherwise why talk about it? You're certainly not interested in my problems, and it's by definition a problem for me, so it's not like I e…

For real? Like if in the course of a conversation, somebody brings up that they've been struggling with depression and have a hard time getting up in the morning, you actually interpret that as a request for instructions they can follow, in order to become happy again?

I just find that a little hard to believe. If it's actually true, well, I dunno, I'm sorry for you?

Re: Just don’t

#323

Post by mikepurvis »

avianlyric wrote: post #292
vasco wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do though? Just stand there quietly nodding? When I try to do this I end up basically saying "that sucks", "hmm hmm", "yeah", etc which is very frustrating to me as I'd hate someone doing that to me. Or worse, sometimes I get the feeling that those "that need a listener" actually want mindless agreement with whatever the situation was or I feel like I'll be reinforcing insecurities. Let's say someone is t…

There’s a big difference between agreeing with someone, and acknowledging their emotional state. In these situations people just want to hear you acknowledge that you understand they are in pain, no necessary agree with their cause of action. If you’re not sure what to ask, then your best course of action is to enquire about why they think they feel a certain way. Why does they job makes them stressful, why does talk…

> There’s a big difference between agreeing with someone, and acknowledging their emotional state.

This has been a key takeaway for me too, also in the context of intimate partner communication.

However, I would say that there can for sure be pitfalls with it— it's easy to believe that you are communicating only acknowledgment of emotional state, but have the listener receive it as signing on to their interpretation of the facts, the overall premise, their assessment of the other players' actions and motivations in the story, and so on.

This can lead to major misunderstandings down the road, when the person presents concrete actions that they are expecting will be taken. They may not be anticipating any pushback on this because previous validation-of-emotional-state conversations led them to believe you were both on the same page, when in fact you have significant concerns (whether it was that they misjudged the situation, escalated it unnecessarily, viewed someone else's actions unfairly, failed to accept a compromise or take possible corrective actions, whatever it is).

At that point, it's probably the type of conflict best taken to a professional to sort out, but I think of these situations when I see relationship coaches on TikTok talking up this kind of emotional validation as being a silver bullet for resolving all conflicts and achieving lasting harmony.

Re: Just don’t

#324

Post by jasonlotito »

jerf wrote: post #60
huhtenberg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything, nothing works". Few people like being asked open-ended questions when they are irritated.

Mmmm, well, I'm all about being accommodating and gracious to people under stress, but as this is all generally in the context of a professional interaction, there are some expectations of those who are being asked questions. If you don't want to be pestered with my every guess about what you may have already done, likely hitting several things you have, you really ought to be able to answer the question "what have y…

> but as this is all generally in the context of a professional interaction, there are some expectations of those who are being asked questions.

The expectation is that they speak the same language. Whether they understand what I'm asking is on me, and helping them understand what I'm asking is also on me.

"What have you tried?" is such challenging question, because you don't know the technical skill of the person involved. Will they use the same terminology as you? Do they know what upload/download mean? Servers? Anything?

And then there is the case of someone coming to you after trying many things. They won't necessarily have a list of things they've tried.

What I find most useful is going back and confirming assumptions.

"What have you tried" assumes a lot. It assumes a problem, it assumes a direction of the problem, and it also guides you into thinking of the solutions rather than the problem, even if subconsciously.

Always start by verifying assumptions. That, and going to the source. Both of these revolve around going to the source and verifying.

Re: Just don’t

#325

Post by jasonlotito »

dspillett wrote: post #108
huhtenberg wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Everything, nothing works". Few people like being asked open-ended questions when they are irritated.

“CNR, not enough detail, ticket closed, reopen with more information if your problem persists”. I don't have time to dig information out of people in order to try to help them, if they can't make any effort to help me help them when I ask for more information. This is of course one of the reasons I'm not generally client facing these days!

> This is of course one of the reasons I'm not generally client facing these days!

That's like someone who isn't a C/C++ developer having opinions on C/C++ development.

Re: Just don’t

#326

Post by stcroixx »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #86
laputan_machine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. If you're complaining to me about your chronic condition then I will feel compelled to give you advice on things that I think might help you. That's the crux. It turns out people just want to be free to whinge about their issues without doing anything about it. That's fine, but don't talk to me about it, then. At the very least, tell me that you just want to whinge. Edit: Obviously this is to my friends a…

> If you're complaining to me about your chronic condition then I will feel compelled to give you advice on things that I think might help you. Heh, I have to admit I chuckled at that one. To be honest, I felt somewhat similarly earlier in my life. In all seriousness, I highly recommend group therapy. You will discover that no matter how much you feel "compelled" to give advice in moments when people are looking for…

You can’t tell if someone is looking for advice or support and connection. If you assume, like you suggest, you’re going to get it wrong sometimes. I’d personally never waste someone’s time with my problem if I didn’t genuinely respect and value their perspective. I’d also consider advice to be support though. Not everyone is looking for silent head nodding.

Re: Just don’t

#327

Post by bigiain »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #192
blowski wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marriage has taught me to go even further than that. I now ask "are you telling me to get it off your chest, or you want help solving it?". If the former, I don't offer any solutions whatsoever, in any kind of format.

Thank you for bringing this up. This was a life lesson that unfortunately had to be spelled out for me in a very embarrassing way. My ultimate takeaway is to now default to listening without advice. The result are on average better as people who want to vent are more put-off by advice givers than advice seeks who receive a good listener. It's also made me quite a bit more appreciative of times when I need to vent and…

> My ultimate takeaway is to now default to listening without advice.

Eve when it’s not listening to someone who’s venting, that can be really powerful anyway.

The best sys admin I’ve ever work with used to keep a teddy bear on the end of her desk. When people came to her with a question or problem she’d say “talk to the bear”. It’s astounding how often explaining the problem to an inanimate object results in the solution becoming obvious to the person ding the explaining.

(Note, she was really good at not saying in a rude or dismissive way, but she was somewhat on the spectrum and we ran a lot of cover to ensure the CEO didn’t get told to talk to the bear…)

Re: Just don’t

#328

Post by bigiain »

vasco wrote: post #262
kelseyfrog wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for bringing this up. This was a life lesson that unfortunately had to be spelled out for me in a very embarrassing way. My ultimate takeaway is to now default to listening without advice. The result are on average better as people who want to vent are more put-off by advice givers than advice seeks who receive a good listener. It's also made me quite a bit more appreciative of times when I need to vent and…

What do you do though? Just stand there quietly nodding? When I try to do this I end up basically saying "that sucks", "hmm hmm", "yeah", etc which is very frustrating to me as I'd hate someone doing that to me. Or worse, sometimes I get the feeling that those "that need a listener" actually want mindless agreement with whatever the situation was or I feel like I'll be reinforcing insecurities. Let's say someone is t…

At least personal type conversations, “that sucks” is very very often exactly the right thing to say. Even in work situations it can be a reasonable first response, at least with people not too much further up the org chart than you: “The load balancer latencies have just spiked” “That sucks”. (I’d suggest against using it if CTO comes in yelling about the entire network being cryptolockered though. Unless it’s “That sucks, but I told you so. I quit.”)

Re: Just don’t

#329

Post by scrozier »

blowski wrote: post #63
unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

Marriage has taught me to go even further than that. I now ask "are you telling me to get it off your chest, or you want help solving it?". If the former, I don't offer any solutions whatsoever, in any kind of format.

Exactly. Being on the receiving end of unsolicited advice is truly annoying, which most posters here seem to be ignoring. Unsolicited advice is annoying, no matter what insincere bullsh*t you wrap it in

Re: Just don’t

#330

Post by pbourke »

hamburglar wrote: post #217
fishtoaster wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I might have to borrow that! I've sometimes used "for my own understanding, is there a reason we're not doing X?"

This one grates on me as insincere-sounding, to be honest. It can sound a bit like a sarcastic way to state the obvious. “Oh, you’re cold? For my understanding — and I may be way off base here — but is there a reason you haven’t closed the fucking window?” (Obvious extreme example of intentional sarcasm)

I wish more people would ask simple questions with the expectation of getting a complicated answer.

Usually it’s more along the lines of “for my own understanding, why can’t we just ship things as they’re ready instead of waiting for everything in the order to go in one box?”

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