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Just don’t

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Re: Just don’t

#101

Post by BlueTemplar »

blowski wrote: post #63
unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

Marriage has taught me to go even further than that. I now ask "are you telling me to get it off your chest, or you want help solving it?". If the former, I don't offer any solutions whatsoever, in any kind of format.

This is soooo important ! (And not just in marriage...)

Re: Just don’t

#103

Post by edw519 »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

what is the warehouse actually trying to pencil in?

Wow! Great question!

This tells me that the root problem here is that development was done before analysis. Broken process. Often broken results. And most certainly broken management.

OP is nitpicking semantics while unsupported is identifying something so much larger: an opportunity to avoid OP's conundrum by doing things right in the first place.

Best wishes, unsupported. I hope you get an opportunity to build what was actually needed in the first place (and may deliver results orders of magnitude higher). But somehow I get the feeling you'll end up just giving them work-around landscape and move on. We've all been there.

TRANSLATION: What would need to change in this business to print the warehouse workers' notes on the pdf before it's actually printed. And please don't supply a response that begins with, "Just don't"

Re: Just don’t

#104

Post by torstenvl »

andsoitis wrote: post #39
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better, since it's an open question instead of a suggestion; the suggestion itself can already be condescending or insulting someone's intellect. Even though sometimes it IS that simple, see Occam's Razor. But really, "have you tried turning it off and on again", while a funny quote, can be quite condescending as opposed to "What have you tried".

Yep, exactly. The only caveat I'd offer is that sometimes this is not a good question to ask ("what have you tried?") because it can be interpreted as "are you doing anything about it?" Edge case, true, but still worth being intentional about.

Asking "what have you tried?" suggests that the answer to the question will lead to the answer to the problem.

But the person seeking help already knows what they have tried, and they don't have an answer.

So in the absolute best case, it's a useless question, you're just trying to get them to rubber duck it. In a less-than-great case, it'll be taken as a suggestion that they need your guidance in basic critical thinking and troubleshooting.

In my view, the very limited potential upside (successful Socratic rubber ducking) is not worth the significant potential downside (insulting them by suggesting they already have the answer, they're just not smart enough to see it).

Re: Just don’t

#105

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

andsoitis wrote: post #12
pornel wrote: post #6

Related: if someone has a chronic condition, don't drop on them unsolicited medical advice, especially things like "have you tried yoga?", "you just need more sunshine", "you must try my cousin's healing tea!". You're not their doctor, and they haven't shared all the medical details with you. Your 3-second diagnosis is almost certainly terrible. They've heard it a dozen times already, and it's difficult and tiring to…

what if they complain about it chronically? are you then justified to offer unsolicited advice, or do you have to just listen (i.e. be their outlet)?

I think that's a very good question. I'll give an anecdote from group therapy.

There was one member of my group who was having a difficult time motivating himself to make a particular change he wanted to make. I had long since learned the dangers of "advice giving", so really just asked why he felt it was so hard to make that change. He definitely had a lot of backstory that could explain his underlying fear.

However, this pattern went on for about 9 months (him complaining about not being able to make this change, the rest of the group offering support). Finally, at one point I said "Bob, I really care about you, but to be honest, you've been complaining about your situation for months now and you aren't actually doing anything to change it. I understand where your fear comes from, but if you're not going to even try to do something different, I don't really want to hear about it anymore."

The next week he came in having made the first step toward his goal. Point being I had a much bigger motivating impact on him once I let him know how he was affecting my feelings (of course, after we had a lot of time to build up trust) than if I had said "just do x, y, z".

Re: Just don’t

#106

Post by laputan_machine »

spiffytech wrote: post #91
laputan_machine wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. If you're complaining to me about your chronic condition then I will feel compelled to give you advice on things that I think might help you. That's the crux. It turns out people just want to be free to whinge about their issues without doing anything about it. That's fine, but don't talk to me about it, then. At the very least, tell me that you just want to whinge. Edit: Obviously this is to my friends a…

I have a chronic condition that comes up lot because it dominates my life. It touches everything I do, so bringing it up is unavoidable. Early on I liked people trying to help. But after years of working on the issue, I've learned how specialized my situation is and how useless most advice is for me. But friends & family don't have anything to offer besides the usual armchair advice. When I open up to someone new I a…

I think there's a misunderstanding in what I'm saying, or perhaps people aren't understanding that listening is actually quite a skill to practice and is really quite draining. It isn't free to ask people to listen to you, there is a cost associated with it.

Asking people to listen but then they can't input is something I find incredibly arrogant, egotistical, selfish, basically it's a terrible human trait and I'm surprised there are so many apologists in this thread that defend this kind of behaviour.

Again, I'm not talking about off the cuff "how was your day" "oh my angina is playing up again" "WELL THEN YOU SHOULD DO THIS AND THAT" kinds of conversations... I think that is obvious.

I mean the 30 minute ones where someone is sounding off to you about their problems. Yeah, I am going to give you "advice" (as in, this is a problem lets figure out how to solve it). I'm genuinely surprised this is seen as A Bad Thing. Especially given our community is one of hackers and yanno, people who get hired to solve problems...

Re: Just don’t

#107

Post by nostromo »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #7

I get a lot more mileage out of "have you tried..." than "why don't you just...". As a recent example, I wrote a system that auto-generates PDF packing slips from an order form, to send to a warehouse for picking and packing. Yesterday a client told me to "just make it landscape" while I was explaining why "just making it landscape" won't solve the problem of giving the warehouse whitespace to pencil stuff in, becaus…

Food for thought: It's quite possible you're not understanding the client well, and are indeed wasting their time.

I've worked with contractors where you know what you want and why, but the developer insists on throwing up a lot of objections on how it won't solve the problem for x or y reason. Changing the orientation of a PDF seems like the kind of request that should be straight forward and not require a lot of heavy lifting to convince a contractor that it's worthwhile.

Re: Just don’t

#108

Post by dspillett »

huhtenberg wrote: post #45
andsoitis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "have you tried..." Or: "what have you tried?"

"Everything, nothing works". Few people like being asked open-ended questions when they are irritated.

“CNR, not enough detail, ticket closed, reopen with more information if your problem persists”.

I don't have time to dig information out of people in order to try to help them, if they can't make any effort to help me help them when I ask for more information.

This is of course one of the reasons I'm not generally client facing these days!

Re: Just don’t

#109

Post by BlueTemplar »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #36
andsoitis wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "have you tried..." Or: "what have you tried?"

Even better, since it's an open question instead of a suggestion; the suggestion itself can already be condescending or insulting someone's intellect. Even though sometimes it IS that simple, see Occam's Razor. But really, "have you tried turning it off and on again", while a funny quote, can be quite condescending as opposed to "What have you tried".

That's why you preface it with "just to be sure". Depending on the situation, "what have you tried" can come before or after (or in the middle, if several obvious known failures exist).

Re: Just don’t

#110

Post by JackFr »

KIFulgore wrote: post #54

Funny... my roommates and I used "just" for comedic effect in college. I was stuck writing an algorithm and asked my more-experienced roommate for help. He briefly scanned my code and said, "well, you kind of just... code it." I looked at him quizzically and just blurted, "straight up?" "Yep, just straight up code it." Then we all laughed at the absurdity. He wasn't trying to trivialize the problem, to be clear, but…

I had an office mate, who after our abusive and demeaning boss would leave our office, would quote Gene Hackman from Superman III: “I ask you to kill Superman, and you're telling me you couldn't even do that one, simple thing.”

(Sometimes if she was still in earshot he would say it in Spanish which somehow made it even funnier.)

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