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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

economist.com

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#811

Post by light_hue_1 »

helloworld11 wrote: post #806
light_hue_1 wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And so what? Does he somehow owe a personal debt to a country because it, for reasons of its own, decided to fix and fight against internal historical wrongs that its own people had created in the first place? Yes. He owes a personal debt because the average wealth of white families is vastly higher than that of black families because they were exploited for 300+ years. The black student who worked even harder but…

Truly, what the hell? First, the guy in question is from India and isn't an Anglo/European white man who "benefited" from centuries of exploitation of blacks in the United States. Secondly, many white people in the United States today also managed to build a life for themselves without having done so. Your notion of historical guilt really is more like the absurd religious idea of original sin than a realistic or gen…

> Why would you completely misinterpret a fairly straightforward argument in the most emotionally charged, simplistic and negative way possible?

Why would you ignore basic facts? White families in the US stole from black families for centuries. Today the average white family has more than 10x the wealth of the average black family.

This must be fixed. It is not a "historical wrong". It is a wrong that is occurring now. Today. To real people. By the wealthy in the US toward minorities who are much poorer.

> the guy in question is from India and isn't an Anglo/European white man who "benefited" from centuries of exploitation of blacks in the United States

What nonsense.

He moved to a country where white people stole from black people for centuries. Then said "Well, we're rich now, and the theft happened a while ago, so.. good luck!". And now he shares in that stolen wealth. He is as responsible as everyone else.

> Furthermore, nothing I said is about continuing to exploit black people or advocating racism. It's specifically about redressing past wrongs against African Americans and other minorities without creating new ones against other arbitrarily assigned groups, particularly if they're immigrants who have also had to suffer for their forward movement and have no personal fault in the past racial tensions and injustices of a country they're not originally from.

How can you redress a wrong against black and native people if it's illegal to look at whether someone is black or native when giving life-changing opportunities?

Come on.

Just admit it. You enjoy your racism and have zero desire to help anyone. Stop hiding behind "I totally want to help people, as long as literally no one is inconvenienced, without any plan, outcomes, or goals." Please.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#812

Post by light_hue_1 »

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #790
light_hue_1 wrote: post #739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard tha…

>but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race. And as a dad, I don't like it. >You are displaying an amazing sense of entitlement. This is how I objectively know he's being held to a much higher standard. A kid of any other race, to have the same chance of admission to these schools, will need an SAT score 250-450 points lower (depending on race), and a GPA…

> This is how I objectively know he's being held to a much higher standard. A kid of any other race, to have the same chance of admission to these schools, will need an SAT score 250-450 points lower (depending on race), and a GPA 0.2 - 0.9 lower (again, depending on race), than him. To use Harvard's own statistic, "An Asian American in the fourth lowest decile has virtually no chance of being admitted to Harvard (0.9%) but an African American in that decile has a higher chance of admission (12.8%) than an Asian American in the top decile (12.7%)" They tried to explain it on the basis of soft metrics like "personality". Funnily enough, interviewers didn't judge Asian Americans as low on personality and sociability. Only the admissions staff did. Go figure.

Other posters who understand this tried to explain it to you. Even if this law were to change, it would make zero difference. You don't understand what changes these statistics. Race is a shorthand for them. Those people come from a much more disadvantaged background.

Your child comes from a wealthy family with every opportunity and is doing ok for it. Other people come from very far behind and got nearly to the same place. Their gap is much much larger, their effort is much much larger, as a consequence their achievement is higher.

These statistics will not change substantially after the lawsuit.

Moreover, you're totally being blinded by this to blame the wrong people: poor black kids.

Do you realize that the vast majority of applicants at Harvard aren't getting in by merit? They go in through programs related to wealth and legacy. That's where people should be upset.

Instead, you're just walking down a racist path that is obviously false.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#813

Post by jlkuester7 »

ashwagary wrote: post #646
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know me, writing about high caste and whatnot. I remember having $30 in the bank, sleeping in my car in Detroit, and being awakened by gunshots near Wayne State Univ. The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days. I forgive you since you wrote out of ignorance.

>The reason I'm grateful for what we have is that I'll never forget those days. Dont forget to be grateful to the black people affirmative action was originally intended to help. They are the only reason you were allowed into the US and could become naturalized. They spent their limited political capital fighting for you when they didnt need to.

> They are the only reason you were allowed into the US and could become naturalized.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is meant as hyperbole. Still I feel like this comment falls into the same rut that has lead to the current college admissions debate.

Advocating for poor people does not have to be seen as an attempt to disenfranchise or minimize the opportunities of racial minorities.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#814

Post by BoorishBears »

ipaddr wrote: post #809
BoorishBears wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you just decided to jump off the deep end with non-sequitur. I am black and I didn't say I live in Sudan. Sudan is not in West Africa. I knew you were white because you said people who think minorities are token hires is something that only happens in movies. Minorities can be racist, but a white person would be the first to say something so naïve. - > Your views are white and black and that's not reality. Th…

You know I'm a certain race because the views I presented fit into a category of believes you have? In the end you have shown yourself to be very racist. You should reflect on if judging someone based on race is something you want to promote.

You were scraping the bottom of the barrel but now you're just digging a hole under it.

You're clearly not convinced of anything you just wrote, but you felt the need to say something after being trounced. Unfortunately this wasn't the answer we were looking for.

Maybe just reflect on this conversation and grow as a person.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#815

Post by jlkuester7 »

onetimeusename wrote: post #804
pmonks wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think he’s only going to get a great CS education at the Ivies, Cal, Caltech, Stanford, etc.? Very few of the best graduates I’ve worked with in my ~30 year career studied at those schools - it was places like UW, UBC and Waterloo that stood out to me as producing a high number of high quality, socially adapted graduates. [edit] and before anyone asks, no I’m not Canadian

It's not really about the education. If it were, there wouldn't be a lawsuit about this. This is a pretty simple thing to solve if the goal were just about education. The Jewish Quota that the Ivies did probably led to the rise of MIT and NYU, etc. The reality is that the most elite universities create kind of a petite noblesse (necessary for moving into the upper nobility) that is very appealing to the middle class.…

I don't see how you could eliminate the bottleneck in prestigious universities since if they are widely accessible, by definition they would no longer be prestigious.

IMHO, the best way forwards is for folks to push for the expansion of the size and power of the middle class by any means possible (government policies as well as simply patronizing small businesses with our money). We don't need a ruling elite that holds power partially by their common participation in 'prestigious' educational institutions. Those institutions demonstrably do not provide the best education, they should not serve as gatekeepers to power.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#816

Post by Vt71fcAqt7 »

mcguire wrote: post #782
Vt71fcAqt7 wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-de... Police killing black people for being black as some sort of racist unwritten policy is a myth. The rates shown here make perfect sense. And most (99%?) were armed. Also consider that there are hundreds of millions of Americans. It's difficult to fully grasp just how large that is. The media likes selling stories but that doesn't change the facts. A dozen…

First, those are cases of black people being arrested or detained, sometimes violently, by police. Not killed. Further, many of them resulted in a successful lawsuits against the police, which should tell you something about the quality of police actions. Second, keep in mind that data about police violence, including deaths, are complete shit because police are not required to report data and no one has an incentive…

>By one estimate, Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police during their lifetime.

That is because they commit more violent crimes. Did you know that?

>Black people who were fatally shot by police seemed to be twice as likely as white people to be unarmed.

See the last point.

In 99.9% of cases, people killed by police are commiting crimes.

Also note that asians have the lowest rate of being killed by police. I suppose it was asians that were the real whites all along? Or perhaps you simply can't make sweeping conclusions from this data.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#817

Post by jlkuester7 »

erenyeager wrote: post #712
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

Ostensibly to you it isn’t “fair” in the way you have described it. But from a different view, your son is very privileged to be in the position he is, I’m sure he will do well wherever he goes for school. You’re in the South Bay bubble that has put so much hype and pressure on these things. Of course, education is important to you as a cultural value and practical matter; but consider that students who are capable c…

Side point, but I wonder if how many people who are opposed to AA are actually in favor of "legacy admits". Both smell very fishy to me. (No clear academic motive for either....)

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#818

Post by rayiner »

erenyeager wrote: post #766
rayiner wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really a good idea to vote so selfishly, not considering unintended consequences of empowering Trump-type people and enshrining a nativist, racist, and supremacist movement? This strikes me as a feeble attempt by Democrats to refocus the conversation on what people say and/or think and away from the system of legalized discrimination they endorse. Conservative populism isn't some uniquely "nativist, racist, a…

Well perhaps we agree to disagree on this regard to an extent. My own experience in republican-white dominated areas includes attempts to block buildings for minorities, gloss over historical events to favor one side, suppress different viewpoints, forced participation in Christian religious activities even at the governmental level, and deeply ignorant, bigoted takes on the “other”. Of course this is by no means lim…

> own experience in republican-white dominated areas includes attempts to block buildings for minorities, gloss over historical events to favor one side, suppress different viewpoints, forced participation in Christian religious activities even at the governmental level, and deeply ignorant, bigoted takes on the “other”

What does that even mean? Are people in Texas making you take Communion? Are they beating you for being brown? Yelling profanities in the street? Are they robbing you or denying you jobs?

And if not, how does any of that affect your daily life? That all seems extremely abstract to me. How can it be more relevant than democrats wanting to legalize discrimination against Asians in universities and workplaces? That’s concrete harm. Why should I care what “takes” some white person in Kansas had about people from Muslim countries, when democrats want to legalize discrimination against my kids?

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#819

Post by onetimeusename »

jlkuester7 wrote: post #815
onetimeusename wrote: post #804

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about the education. If it were, there wouldn't be a lawsuit about this. This is a pretty simple thing to solve if the goal were just about education. The Jewish Quota that the Ivies did probably led to the rise of MIT and NYU, etc. The reality is that the most elite universities create kind of a petite noblesse (necessary for moving into the upper nobility) that is very appealing to the middle class.…

I don't see how you could eliminate the bottleneck in prestigious universities since if they are widely accessible, by definition they would no longer be prestigious. IMHO, the best way forwards is for folks to push for the expansion of the size and power of the middle class by any means possible (government policies as well as simply patronizing small businesses with our money). We don't need a ruling elite that hol…

ya I agree that they shouldn't be the gatekeepers to power. My thought was to make elite universities more competitive against each other. That way maybe the distinction between the top 0.001% and the top 1% matters a lot less because there are lots of elite schools that are all roughly equal. Maybe making more universities or encouraging other schools to step up to compete so that the bottle neck is less so would work. But it's still an education bottleneck.

I am kind of disgusted with the whole thing though. I don't like all this zero sum competition over a name on a piece of paper.

I think in some other countries they have a system where if you make it past a threshold you have a guaranteed spot in their top tier school system. We should do that. We should educate people who have the talent and want to be educated, the specific name should be less important. I think this would ease a lot of tension, make things more fair, and provide the best outcome. But I don't even know if people would want this because the appeal of a super elite degree seems to be pretty enticing.

I have to think about the expansion of power of the middle class. Buying from small businesses would lessen the incentives to have these degrees to some extent. But I have to think about how to apply that to tech. The exact pedigree of a CS degree seems to be extremely important for example even if this is probably meaningless.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#820

Post by rayiner »

chengiz wrote: post #689
RigelKentaurus wrote: post #437

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

> We're far from privileged. Indian-American father here as well. You came to the US from India. You are probably upper caste. You almost certainly got a good quality education in India for cheap. Your parents probably had servants. You are privileged. End of story.

Bangladeshi-American father here. “Privileged” compared to who? It would be one thing if Ivy League universities accepted Appalachians and rural Georgians stuck in generational poverty. Ironically, people like Clarence Thomas—minorities who grew up in real poverty—are not the main target of AA. The whole reason this is a problem here is that these policies aren’t actually based on privilege. It’s racial gerrymandering—seeking privileged people from overall disadvantaged groups.
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