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American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

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Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the Supreme Court strikes down legalized discrimination against asians, I hope you remember who put those judges there. Politics is about people voting in their self interest. If you're Asian, that calculus is simple. Trump might be boorish and say mean things, but his side wants to maintain a system that has worked extraordinarily well for Asians. Poor Asian kids have more than double the income mobility of poo…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Is it really a good idea to vote so selfishly, not considering unintended consequences of empowering Trump-type people and enshrining a nativist, racist, and supremacist movement?

This strikes me as a feeble attempt by Democrats to refocus the conversation on what people say and/or think and away from the system of legalized discrimination they endorse.

Conservative populism isn't some uniquely "nativist, racist, and supremacist" threat. Trump people are for the most part just insular in the same way most people in my home country are insular: https://www.outlookindia.com/national/rohingyas-camps-becomi.... Democrats--with their affinity for diversity and change for their own sake--are the ones who are radically different.

You're right that, all else being equal, Asians should prefer the folks who don't make fun of foreign-sounding names. But all else isn't equal. The people who are nice to your face want to create a racial hierarchy that will prejudice Asians legally and economically. It is illogical to me for Asians to support that, just because some white Trump voters in Kansas say the same things their folks back home in India or China would say if the shoe were on the other foot.

> Most of the geographical US has places where non-white people basically feel not welcome.

I grew up in a Virginia House district that went Republican by 30-50 points the entire time I lived there. I have been all over the south and midwest. I live in a precinct that went decisively for Trump in 2016. I have never felt "not welcome" in those places. Now, I don't know what white people say behind my back, but I also don't care. They should hear what my parents say about non-college educated white people.

Indeed, the most racism I have encountered in my life has been from white liberals in the last 5-6 years. It's not Trump-people making me write diversity statements about "tell us about how you're not from here and are different from white people." Give me a guy in a MAGA hat who assumes I don't speak English any day of the week over a condescending white liberal who sees my identity as a vehicle for advancing their ideology.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#742
post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I were a college application reviewer, I would filter for helicopter parents in an attempt to find kids genuinely seeking education as opposed to parents pushing their kids to unhappy places.

And I would only look at test scroes like SAT. Nothing else. Maybe few exceptions on relevant competitions like math olympics medalists.

Yeah that’s a terrible approach. All you’d get are kids who are good at testing and nothing else.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#743
post #569

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applica…

You forgot to mention two very important points:

1) The ivy leagues (and many other colleges of the US) shifted from a purely meritocratic assessment to an "all rounder" vetting process of potential candidates simply to eliminate the "undesirables" (at that time, mostly jews).

> The first thing to understand is that everything we know about selective college admissions today is less than a century old. So if you go back to 1910 or 1920, the Ivy League schools were not particularly expensive. They were not particularly desirable, in that they didn't have five or 10 or 20 times as many applicants as there were spots. And they weren’t particularly rigorous about vetting students ... So how did we get from there to here today, when these schools are desirable, expensive, and have a very rigorous vetting process?

> The answer is that most of those measures came about as part of the effort to limit the percentage of Jews in the student body. The extensive college application of multiple pages came about because they added questions to figure out if an applicant was Jewish, including What’s your religion? What is your father’s occupation? What is your mother’s maiden name? Where were your parents born? At some schools, they asked you to attach a photograph. Some began to require an interview. And that was in part so they could try to suss out if you were Jewish or not.

(Source: America’s most prestigious universities became elite through policies designed to keep Jews out of them. - https://newsletters.theatlantic.com/deep-shtetl/632c8ea068f6... ).

> ... the Ivy League didn't really want them. Being first-generation students, these applicants didn't have rich alumni parents who would be likely to donate big bucks. Being from an ethnicity not associated with America's governing class, they didn't help the Ivy League with its biggest selling point — that going to college there provides an opportunity to rub shoulders with America's governing class. And they were seen as boring grinds who studied too hard and weren't much fun.

> The result was a change in admissions criteria to reward "leadership," and "well-rounded" candidates — a thin disguise for "WASPs" — and, following closely on, actual quotas for Jewish students, so that no matter how many applied, their numbers on campus would stay just about the same.

Source: Asians get the Ivy League's Jewish treatment: Column - https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/11/23/ivy-league...

Yeah, it looks like they are doing the same thing with the Asian-Americans today (who have a similar immigrant cultural values like the jewish immigrants of the early 20th century - strong family ties and cultural importance to getting a good education).

2) If you are rich and have money to bribe these colleges, the "minimum qualification" will be "adjusted" to accommodate you. (Source: How elite US schools give preference to wealthy and white 'legacy' applicants - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/23/elite-school... ).

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#744
For the entire history of this country the elites have pitted the working class against itself along racial lines. The failure of Reconstruction to enable Black agency or punish slaveholders deeply scarred the country and it may never heal from it.

The media and political class continually manufactures the racial divide. We see this now with the culture war about crime narratives.

A Americans lack class consciousness in part because a plurality of Americans do not have the lived experience of the "working class". The decimation of the labor movement over the past 50 years didn't help either. And those who experience class divide the most, the very poor and homeless, are totally politically disenfranchised.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#745
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need to speculate, the gap is more like 99th vs 93rd percentile: This is easily the gap between a single individual on two different test days. Which is another way of saying that the difference is not useful in assembling a university's incoming class. Once you get above a certain level, the tests decrease in utility to categorize individuals into tiers. Once you get to a certain level of capability, you…

>This is easily the gap between a single individual on two different test days. Skill difference between top 1% and top 7% is huge in ELO based games

SAT scoring is not an ELO system.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#746

Indian-American father here, living in the Bay Area. My wife and I came to this country with a few hundred dollars between us and have worked hard to reach where we’re at. We're far from privileged. I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. I think there should be some measure of AA on the basis of economic status. It's quite personal for me this year. My 17-year old is applying to universities to st…

I can't tell if these counselors are giving bad advice or the college admissions landscape really is that competitive now compared to 15 years ago. 4.0 and 1600 are perfect scores and trivially, higher than the average scores of admitted students, let alone all applicants.

Every applicant needs stuff on their application besides academics as well, so try to stand out there. They look for unique talents. If they believe that someone is the best X at Y niche that the admissions team likes them they're getting in no matter what.

Also... these schools admit a number of Indian-American males every year. Your son does have a chance. Unfortunately the competition is higher for him due to these unfair rules.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I'm glad someone pointed that out. Most Indians I've known have been completely oblivious both to how the caste system favored them, as well as how ludicrously archaic and objectively absurd it is to outside observers.

I don't think this would have turned any different had they been lower caste.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 'high' or 'dominant' castes make up more that more than 90% of Indian migrants as per a study in 2016. > The backward castes of South Asia, known as Dalits, form 1.5% of all Indian immigrants to the United States Calling me ignorant and a passive aggressive "forgive you" without actually addressing my comment isn't "kind". GP came here with a stem degree worth millions of dollars in lifetime earnings , NOT $30…

Astounding to see racism and ignorance represented as virtue signaling so blatantly! Are you aware that the majority of STEM seats in Indian colleges are set aside for either affirmative action for ‘lower’ castes (itself an arbitrary criteria) and women? The average man in India is competing for approx 10% of college seats! And saying an Indian STEM degree is worth millions in lifetime earnings reveals even more igno…

I merely quoted some stats, stats are not racist. I read through your rant but didn't see an explanation of why only upper caste Indians are emigrating to usa. whats that about? How do only 30% of Indians make up 90+% indians in USA.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read it over again Magoo: the subject is a specific kind of degree and how it opens doors for a specific industry in the Bay Area. A specific industry known for being insanely competitive and requiring almost comical qualifications to get in. Put the pieces together.

I still stand with my point Degree is not worth this much.

A degree gets you in the door at all and starts you off with a higher salary (I would say significantly so) than someone with no comparable education. Those two things are a huge advantage, both in terms of money and in terms of the odds that you will be able to start making it at all.
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