American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class • Hacker News Board

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#731

Post by xyzzyz » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:14 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #713

xyzzyz wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you really express opinion about how forced busing worked without knowing such basic facts? Here is, for example, a NYT article from 1973, describing result of a Gallup poll: https://www.nytimes.com/1973/09/09/archives/gallup-finds-few... > A majority of Americans continue to favor public school integration, but few people—black or white—think that busing is the best way to achieve that goal, the Gallup Poll repo…

People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop. Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities. I've lived in the south where busing had been forced and the north where it wasn't. It does work. https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED571629 > When people call busing ill conceived or the worst means of ensuring integration, they conveni…

> People once wanted slavery and explicit segregation, that doesn't mean it's evil to force them to stop.

Sure, but if it was the slave themselves who preferred slavery to what your courts were forcing on them, one should really step back and ask oneself if he is doing the right thing.

> Gallop polls not withstanding there is evidence busing improved the lives of minorities.

And there is an ample evidence that it made their lives worse, that one could obtain by simply asking them how they feel about the policy. The fact is that you remain completely uninterested in what the people you claim to be helping actually want, and instead prefer to force your preferences on them because you believe it’s better for them and the society. You know who else claimed the same about their policy, and ignored the protests of people affected by it? The segregationists.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#732

Post by hardware2win » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:26 PM UTC

felix_n wrote: post #708

hardware2win wrote: post #685

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All im saying is that you are probably giving degree too much value You guys over there seem to be treating degree like the only way to better life

Read it over again Magoo: the subject is a specific kind of degree and how it opens doors for a specific industry in the Bay Area. A specific industry known for being insanely competitive and requiring almost comical qualifications to get in. Put the pieces together.

I still stand with my point

Degree is not worth this much.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#733

Post by chiefalchemist » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:36 PM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #58

chiefalchemist wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. A better article title would be: "American Media is Focused On Everything But What They Should Be (And Are Paid Well For It)" This is yet another example of how many of the elites live in a bubble. Well educated, yet oh so ignorant.

We love to scapegoat the media. If you could capture the public's attention and make tons of money focusing on class, someone would do it and dominate discourse. Maybe not existing institutions, but certainly there's nothing preventing someone else from taking to the field. Indeed, there is no shortage of media that do focus on class issues, but they are invariably small & marginalized. Media will literally eat poop…

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#734

Post by jriot » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:37 PM UTC

Eight years ago I was accepted to do a PhD in either economics or mathematics at a local state school, no where near any ranking list. However, I had just separated from the military a year prior after 11 years as enlisted member. I was the first one in my family to graduate college, let alone be accepted for a PhD program.

During the orientation process I had to speak with a young woman about grants and scholarships. She was showing me what was available pulling up a grant or scholarship, each one she selected was for women, people of color, or women of color. After seeing these for ten minutes in a row without one I could I apply for, I made the joke, there doesn't seem to be a lot here for white males. She said I can just apply and let them know I was a white male and I would get like we do for everything else. I ended the process there with a sour taste left in my mouth.

She was unaware of my background, growing up on an island in Alaska in housing built during WWII that was eventually condemned in our last year. Moving to rural NC for my last two years of high school, then spending time in the military, separating from Turkey literally months before the attempted coup.

She saw my race not the diversity I would bring from my experiences.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#735

Post by ted_bunny » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:41 PM UTC

blinkingled wrote: post #387

civilized wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely unironically, I've been looking for a few thousand pages of biography worth reading.

Lol few years ago I got LBJ's from local library and made sincere effort to read through - it was humongous. I could not carry on after a week.

"it was humongous"

Yeah, I've heard that too.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#736

Post by aperson_hello » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:47 PM UTC

Akronymus wrote: post #679

soco wrote: post #676

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally yes, the economic situation should be taken into account as well. But what's the use of enforcing this at college level, when for underprivileged kids (any kind - wrong race, low class, bad neighborhood) the ship of chances sailed away already when they couldn't get through a proper primary school? The OP situation will happen again and again, kids with lower scores will get pushed ahead so the average "smart…

In my opinion, a possible solution would be to get rid of district based funding for schools and instead fund schools mostly based on student amount. One problem of that model is that it can result in teachers avoiding certain schools because that school having a bad rep and thus that school having to pick worse teachers. Another solution I could see working is making it much easier for students to go to other school…

The problem with getting rid of district-based funding is that the worst schools often already get the most per student funding because the state (at least that's the case where I am!). Ultimately the problem is that more money doesn't necessarily result in better outcomes

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#737

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:55 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #717

barry-cotter wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea why some people continue to believe and repeat that grades and tests scores are the key to elite school admissions. It’s much more than that. Everyone believes this. The people who disagree with you disagree on the reason. They think it’s mostly racism. You think Asians are in some way on average inferior in a way that’s obvious to admissions staff but not to alumni interviewers.

> Everyone believes this. Based on the replies I get here and elsewhere (I beat this drum a lot since I think many people have such in accurate perceptions), many people still think that grades and scores are the primary determining factor in elite school admissions, apparently with a dose of racism thrown in to hold down groups who are good at grades and scores. I get very few people who really embrace the idea of “…

[deleted]

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#738

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #601

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than…

> but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race No offense, but this is almost certainly a false narrative that you are telling yourself and your son. It’s not healthy. You summarized everything else outside of his grades and SAT scores as “strong extracurriculars”. Show me an impressive hook and a few rejections from elite schools, and I will agree that ther…

[deleted]

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#739

Post by light_hue_1 » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

RigelKentaurus wrote: post #588

csa wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a normal world, his chances of getting into top-ranked CS programs (Stanford, Berkeley, MIT) would be decent, but we're Indian-American and are considered over-represented on elite college campuses. Let me help put your concerns to rest. If Harvard et al changed their admissions policies to race blind tomorrow, your son still would not get in. How do I know this? You are talking about his prospects as an applica…

Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than…

> Many of your points are valid and I don't disagree with them. But you're assuming too much by saying that he has too narrow of a focus. You don't know him. My kid is strong in some areas, not as strong in others. He's realistic and knows that Harvard, Stanford are lottery schools for almost everyone. He has no feeling of entitlement, and neither do I, but I do know that he's being held to a much higher standard than almost anyone else because of his race. And as a dad, I don't like it.

You are displaying an amazing sense of entitlement.

The reality is that the race is not independent from economic means and social status. Students who are applying who are black or native are at a major disadvantage. In terms of how they were treated personally, how their schools were likely funded, their family wealth, etc. So when someone toggles the race entry, the probabilities factor in the fact that their background is going to be much more compelling.

You have an average wealthy family, without major hardships, in a wealthy area. Your son is doing just ok for his background; not great, not bad. I have seen thousands of such applications and the poster you're replying to is spot on.

Even if the Supreme Court kills race-based affirmative action, universities will use hardship and economic means instead. And that will not change your son's statistics one bit.

Stop blaming underrepresented less well educated poorer people for what your limitations are. That's how you become a racist.

Re: American society is so focused on race that it is blind to class

#740

Post by light_hue_1 » Thu, Nov 03, 2022, 3:08 PM UTC

helloworld11 wrote: post #604

Tozen wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am 100% against affirmative action on the basis of race. The problem with your statement is that affirmative actions is not based solely on race, so it appears that you are attempting to or have mistakenly fallen into perpetuating an offensive myth that the main beneficiaries of it are Black/Hispanic. The group that has benefited the most from affirmative action are White/Non-Hispanic women. White Women and Affir…

>That's a great story, how you came up, after immigrating to America from India. However, very important points that you have glossed over is the history of slavery, redlining, Jim Crow (and other laws), voting suppression, etc... of Black Americans who are the descendants of slaves. They (and other ethnic groups) were being shut out of opportunities, and the courts were attempting to alleviate this in some way. The…

> And so what? Does he somehow owe a personal debt to a country because it, for reasons of its own, decided to fix and fight against internal historical wrongs that its own people had created in the first place?

Yes. He owes a personal debt because the average wealth of white families is vastly higher than that of black families because they were exploited for 300+ years.

The black student who worked even harder but started much further behind, with far fewer resources, deserves a shot too. Even if they didn't get as far.

You're comparing an ultra-privileged child with a child who comes far behind. So course you need to factor that in!

Otherwise you might as well just look at their net worth and only admit children of the rich, because look, they're so far ahead in life already.

> That you make such absurd arguments shows how much the ideological aspect of affirmative action (vs. its practical, carefully balanced merits) has contaminated much progressive thinking.

You have been contaminated by racism and a lack of caring. You want to live in a world where black people are an endless underclass that you can exploit.