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As last module docks, China completes its space station

nytimes.com

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Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#321

Post by omginternets »

nirimda wrote: post #305
omginternets wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s just misuse of the word.

Sure but by now every rational and reasonable reader must understand that whenever they come across the word "inflammable", the author might have misused it and they need to search for additional signals to identify whether it means "inflammable" or "uninflammable". This is not different than how the rational and reasonable reader treats the use of an autoantonym.

There's a difference between misusing a word, and a word that has two accepted meanings.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#322

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #278
nordsieck wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think they are as cost-efficient as SpaceX or even Atlas and Ariane systems. It seems unlikely anyone is as cost-efficient as Falcon 9 with reuse. It appears to me, as an outsider, that Atlas and Ariane are 4-5 times as expensive to operate. There is probably plenty of room for China to operate more efficiently than that. Especially with their launch volume, which is second only to SpaceX.

China is not a high-tech nation. There is a thin patina of bling-bling but underneath they have big trouble between corruption and nobody else trusting them. China has lots of money (for now...) so they can throw a lot of resources at the problem. In China, quick public successes always take precedence over doing it right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China Edit: Some more propaganda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o96yCGqCHFg <- Will be interesting in a few years, I guess.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#323

Post by ClumsyPilot »

iancmceachern wrote: post #224
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, so the chaos and lack of documentation in my company is really protection against chinese spies! Clever! On a more serious note, I find it quite unfair that Western conoany go into China to take advantage of loose labour laws and child labour, and then they complain when loose IP laws hit them. Like you knew what the deal was from the outset. Lastly not every society believes in the concept of intellectual proper…

I mean that's the thing, that wasn't the deal. No company, at all, would sign that agreement. Usually there is an nda, some kind of business agreement that says they won't steal your idea etc. and then they do. It's not like a company goes to China or another lower cost to manufacture country and signs an agreement to give them their business.

You are telling me giant conpanies with 100 people in legal did not study previous Chinese court cases and did not know that IP laws there are poorly enforced? I knew about this for 20 years and they didn't?

All developing nations, whether China or Russia or Somalia, don't enforce some laws. Sometimes it's lack of strong state, sometimes it's lack of beurocratic capacity, or a concious decision. Anyone going into these countries is aware of this.

IP, Labour laws and bribes in case of China.

Clearly western companies take advantage of the two latter, and cry foul about the former. Massive hypocracy.

Meanwhile western government dont enforce their own laws for any kindof accoutability of major business leaders. Chinese will answer for IP theft on the same day CEO of Nestle will go to jail for taking advantage of child labour and slavery in their supply chains.

So probably we will have to wait for judgement day

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/feb/01...

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#324

Post by adhesive_wombat »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #264
adrian_b wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just g…

Honestly, copying is what you are supposed to do with technology when you are competing from behind.

See: early space programme when the the US realised it was behind where Germany had been.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#325

Post by 83 »

adrian_b wrote: post #250
jonnybgood wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than being a traitor to science given China's strategy in regards to acquisition of scientific research and technology. China doesn't collaborate, it just takes until it reaches scientific and technological parity. Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China.

It would be interesting to see some concrete examples of what is claimed in "Once parity is reached, China cuts collaboration agreements and keeps further advancements within China." Whenever I search recent research articles about any topic, I see a very large number that are published by China, and which are freely available. The quality of the Chinese research is quite uneven, there are many papers that are just g…

> I frequently see statements from naive Americans that all that the Chinese do is based on copying, but unfortunately for USA, that was true only in the past and it is no longer true today.

Just because you don't follow them doesn't mean they don't exist. Plenty of ongoing IP theft cases show this is not true. This case closed a few years back that pretty much wiped out a Billion+ dollar US company: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/chinese-company-sinovel-wind-...

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#326

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

thweirou23o43 wrote: post #248
diskzero wrote: post #34

Does anyone know to what extent China has advanced the state of the Soviet technology that they have (I assume) licensed? I have been to the Russian Star City training facility, Baikonur Cosmodrome and been in the full-size Mir training module and the Chinese station components look very similar. I am sure getting good information is difficult, but perhaps someone here has some more info.

I doubt the Russians would share their deep-tech with China. There's quite a bit of enmity b/w the two after the Sino-Soviet split; China for much of recent history was US's weapon against Russia (and India). In fact, it was the US that indirectly help built up the US (much like the rest of East Asia). [I'm generally surprised by how ill-informed western populace is about their own govts doing.]

That may be the case. OTOH, why did Russia build https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vostochny_Cosmodrome almost right next to the border with China? Wouldn't something like that not be of utmost strategic importance?

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#327

Post by zmaurelius »

holoduke wrote: post #311
homeland221 wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You got this very wrong. Read up Art of War written before Jesus. Espionage is a very important chapter. Americans are rather weak academic these days. You go to any American university and see how many "Asians" there. You will find a lot of Chinese. It is common for Americans not able to speak English well or just English. It is very uncommon not to find Chinese that can read and write Chinese AND English. There are…

The problem is that Chinese mentality results in corruption, denialism and other attributes what makes working on R&D almost impossible. For that you need free minds, room for mistakes, no strong hiarchy. All things you won't find in China.

So how did they manage to complete this space station at all when R&D is 'almost impossible'? There is no doubt that China did not develop everything from the ground up, but to disregard the progress that they have made on top of existing technologies is rather shortsighted and disingenuous.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#328

Post by elil17 »

Victerius wrote: post #20
elil17 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need a reason to do it first.

More habitable space, more luxurious accommodations, more energy generating capacity, more space for laboratory equipment and experiments.

It sounds like you're saying that a bigger space station would enable more experimentation quantity and quality. I would still say that the benefits need to justify the costs. We've gotten better at being frugal/scrappy with how we use space resources, whether that's small experiments on the ISS or cubesats.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#329

Post by natch »

diskzero wrote: post #34

Does anyone know to what extent China has advanced the state of the Soviet technology that they have (I assume) licensed? I have been to the Russian Star City training facility, Baikonur Cosmodrome and been in the full-size Mir training module and the Chinese station components look very similar. I am sure getting good information is difficult, but perhaps someone here has some more info.

Licensed Soviet technology? Copycatted is more likely from what I’ve seen having lived in China.

Re: As last module docks, China completes its space station

#330

Post by [deleted] »

diskzero wrote: post #146
russli1993 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the features I know from the Chinese space station - Solar panels smaller in area than ISS but produces similar amount of power, indicating much more efficient solar panels - Ion thrusters to keep space in orbit - Automated docking of cargo and crew capsule. Semi-automated docking of large station components like the 23ton labs - A robotic arm similar to ISS that walk along the joint points on the station. It…

Thanks for the super informative reply. I am hoping as there is more activity on the space station, that more information will be coming out. It would be nice to be able to see something similar to the ESA, NASA and even Roscosmos launch feeds and Q&A sessions.

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