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Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

bbc.com

201–210 of 307 posts

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#201
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just so they don’t catch a cold. The people I know who still wear masks and myself wear them so that others don't get our cold, not necessarily to protect ourselves. A form of respect towards co-workers etc.

Yes. Unfortunately it hasn’t stuck in Australia either. Back to people coughing all over everything out in public. I cannot remember a time as an adult where I have had so few sick days over a 3 year span. Guess that’s over now.

It seems to have stuck slightly better in WA than the rest of Australia, possibly because we had the rapid return to moderate normalcy (with a border closure) and thanks to the prolonged border closure we basically got a 12+ month crash course in several levels of public responsibility. We had occasional mini lockdowns in between to keep untracked community spread at zero until the public health teams worked out the time was right between vaccination levels, delta spreading , etc.

While it’s not a majority of people, I still routinely see people wearing masks out and about, particularly on public transport. But I suspect it’s primarily as a defence against other peoples germs. Which I’ll admit is why I’m currently looking at nicer less “hospital” masks, notably a few companies that make respirators had a mini boom and diversified into “everyday wear” models that didn’t look like you were fumigating for termites. There are reusable respirators that just look like nicer disposable ones now.

It’s also helps that people don’t find it as weird if you have a mask on when riding a bike since that’s been sort of a normal look for a while, pioneered by both the Lycra wearing enthusiasts and the boom in bike couriers thanks to food delivery apps and no one riding as a courier wants to breath car and truck fumes all day.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#202

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

> washing hands

Can we please drop this from COVID discussions? COVID isn’t spread by touch. That was apparent early on, but a lot of energy and resources were still diverted from “things that work” to a cleaning fetish.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You invented some weird strawman about how great China is and that's why they need to lockdown (1.2 Billion people or something). I'm pointing out that the reason they're locking down is because their science sucks and as a result the vaccine doesn't work, so Covid is still a thing there when it isn't in the West because we have working vaccines and also a lot of people with natural immunity.

Oh. Well more people died of COVID in the past two weeks in the U.S. (where COVID is no longer a thing) than have died of COVID in China ever.

> Well more people died of COVID in the past two weeks in the U.S

because they dont want to take the vaccine, its their choice. The govt should not force you to take the vaccine.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#204
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CCP don’t want to lead the world. CCP needs to lead China through all means necessary and global trade is necessary for that.

“ In his three-and-a-half-hour political report to the Party’s 2,300 top officials, Xi laid out a vision for China to lead the world in everything from science and technology, to modern weaponry and military might, to providing a model of economic development and governance for other countries to follow.” https://apcoworldwide.com/blog/xi-jinpings-new-era-of-global...

That’s just lip service. If you judge him by his actions then he’s heavily optimizing for personal power, not national interest or prosperity.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#205

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

> washing hands Can we please drop this from COVID discussions? COVID isn’t spread by touch. That was apparent early on, but a lot of energy and resources were still diverted from “things that work” to a cleaning fetish.

Washing hands is an essential part of personal hygiene. covid or not.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#206
Struggling to understand China’s endgame here. Assuming they achieve zero covid, surely they will be left with a population that is still vulnerable to covid, while the rest of the world (which has largely stopped caring) will have developed immunity the hard way, and therefore China must maintain permanent quarantine/isolation to avoid reintroducing the virus?

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the Netherlands, it may not be policy, but a large number of people just don't care anymore. People with symptoms like coughing and changing tone of voice are still going to school, work and parties. No one wears masks except for some tourists or other foreigners. When planning an event, not a single moment is thought about COVID.

I don't care anymore because I've eyeballed that on average 5 people are dying per day (1825 per year) [1], and it doesn't seem to be changing. That's less than flu season (which is more like 3000 to 5000 per year). I don't have sources for the flu. I read it somewhere, I might be underestimating or overestimating a bit. And of course, all those deaths are horrible, and I feel that pain when I contemplate that for a…

> I don't have sources for the flu.

Just look at the RIVM site. It's probably higher than you specified, closer to 6-7k average per year, with massive differences.

> on average 5 people are dying per day (1825 per year)

This is a bit of a dishonest comparison. You're looking at the numbers from before the expected peak, since it's still incredibly warm in the Netherlands right now and peaks seem to happen when it gets colder. So it'll probably be closer to 4000 per year.

While that still seems less than the flu, it's important to realize that the most vulnerable people are now getting vaccinated multiple times a year for covid. A lot of people who never got a flu shot are also being vaccinated. Then there's the fact that a lot of people are still distancing more than they used to. There's more work from home, many people still stay home when they have covid, while in the past, many people prided themselves for going to work with the flu.

It's really hard to compare historic flu statistics with current covid statistics, because the way we handle covid is still very different from how we used to handle the flu. Therefore your conclusion is misguided.

Now I really don't care whether you care about covid, but at lease the interpretation of the statistics should be correct and you missed a ton of details.

[1] https://www.rivm.nl/monitoring-sterftecijfers-nederland

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#208

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

one country that doesn't gets mentioned is Pakistan, it has a population of 200m+ with heavily dense cities, there were no lockdowns, people prayed in congregations in Mosques 5 times a day with no social distancing and no masks.

Pakistan is one of the dangerous and dirty places on the planet. I highly doubt they can even reliably count births and deaths. Someone on a podcast I watched recently said he saw doctors reusing syringes after stabbing them into an Irish Spring soap bar. I seriously doubt they even have Covid tests.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#209
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back. That's why I wonder wh…

If a disease arises with a much higher fatality rate, lockdowns are still pretty much our only tool to deal with it. Eradication or not, we’re not going to survive a 35% IFR virus with business-as-usual plus hand washing and masks. China will locally eradicate it, and here in the US well… I dunno. It’s not looking great.

If there ever was such a disease you’d actually have the opposite problem of convincing people to go out and keep society running.

Re: Shanghai Disney shuts: Visitors unable to leave without negative Covid test

#210
post #132

Also, Apple: Chinese workers flee Covid lockdown at iPhone factory https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-63447755 . Elsewhere in India, Apple is up its game. India's Tata to add Up to 45,000 woman workers at iPhone parts plant to deal with the shortage of parts created by zero lockdown policy https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-11-01/india-s-t... . More and more stuff is moving to other parts of Asia. So…

Lockdowns certainly can stop geometric rise of an infection and it can make sense if you don't want to have people who might have been saved dying in hospital corridors due to lack of capacity but IMHO it doesn't make any sense whatsoever as a long term solution if the lockdown is not globally coordinated to eradicate the microbe at once. If the lockdown is not global, it will keep coming back. That's why I wonder wh…

A couple of reasons. First, the strict measures were popular and people demanded them. It's been a while since I've spoken with people in China so I'm not sure how much this is still the case, but it was definitely true up to last year.

Second, the measures allowed most people to move relatively freely and go to discos when we still had blanket lockdowns in the west. The idea was to crackdown hard and quickly create green zones were life was possible almost as before. While that means millions of people on lockdown at a given time, it was likely a small fraction of the total population. (I'd like to see actual numbers here but find them hard to come by TBH).

Third, COVID is special as it is one of the few airborne / aerosol-transmitted diseases that you have a good chanche of supressing. The reason is that it shows overdispersion: most people are only slightly contagious, but few people are extremely contagious. (Caveat: I think that was the case with SARS, and with the early SARS-COV-2 variants, but I haven't seen data for Omicron.) This means that contact tracing is extremely effective. Most people will have had contact with the same few spreaders, and if you take them out, you can suppress the virus such that it will die out in a population. Western countries borked that up completely. When the incident numbers were really low, we dropped most measures, but that would have been the opportunity to eradicate it with just 1-2 more weeks of social distancing. Asian countries were much more successful with suppression.

Finally, China is a huge country. Most people move around inside, but rarely leave (its a bit like the US in that regard but much more so). To leave as a Chinese citizen you actually need an exit visa. So the majority of people are not bothered very much by travel restrictions. The comparatively little cross border traffic you can control by just giving everybody mandatory PCR tests. I could imagine the Borders to north Korea, as well as to Laos/Vietnam might be problematic to control, but AFAIK they are pretty closed up now.

So it makes totally sense to them to continue their strict course. I imagine as soon as a good vaccine becomes available there too (maybe a nasal vaccine that can prevent infection and not just severe cases), they will reevaluate.

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