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NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

nytimes.com

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Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#181

Post by zdragnar »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #127
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Over the 2+ decades I've been working in this industry, the list of things that are expected out of an interview process just keeps growing. Intense panel interviews, coding on whiteboards, "show me your github", "do this example project", etc. Tell me your life story. What makes you passionate? They often drag on for weeks, sometimes months, before an actual offer letter is in hand. And at the same time we're told t…

I've gone through exactly one of these types of interviews, and that was at a FAANG. I have since turned down every single offer to interview with a company that did something similar. The one time I did so by phone, it was kind of amusing (and telling) that the company's headhunter was utterly shocked that I was unwilling to fly across the country to do some whiteboard sessions with the team. They clearly targeted FAANG washouts, and weren't accustomed to speaking with a senior developer who could afford to be picky about the interviews he took.

The important thing is, there are plenty of companies that don't pretend to be FAANGs, and don't interview like that. Odds are pretty good that working for them won't be like working at a FAANG either, which (imho) is also a good thing.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#182

Post by game_the0ry »

chrisdbanks wrote: post #94

As an employer, I am reticent to name a salary range because the fact is that the return on investment of employees is not normally distributed; it follows a power law where the top people return many times the amount of an average person. This may be because of connections, experience, intelligence, or a mixture. When I recruit I always want to hire a top person for whom I'm happy to pay 50% more than an average per…

> The worst case is that I say I can't afford you.

Actually, the worst case is that they employer lies and after 4 rounds of interviews and maybe take home assignments, the employer says "actually this job will be paying much less."

(this has happened to me once, it wastes everyones' time)

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#183

Post by tomrod »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #176

> The sweeping New York City rules will apply to almost all companies except for the smallest firms. Any business with at least four workers, assuming at least one of them is based in the city, must include the lowest and highest salaries for any job it posts. ...so, uh, question, because I'm getting increasingly confused about how jurisdiction works. Let's say Houston passes a law which makes it illegal for companie…

> How does BigCorp avoid breaking the law?

Without ceasing operations, they can't. It goes to court, where courts resolve it. That is one function of the court system in the US.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#185

Post by actually_a_dog »

gopalv wrote: post #107
rednerrus wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiters should be talking about numbers in the first interview. Employers should have a sense of what your number is and whether or not they can get there before moving forward with interviewing. If they're not doing that, they're wasting your time and their time.

> If they're not doing that, they're wasting your time and their time. Actually, they're getting paid for the their time. I'm not. I'm actually burning my time. > Recruiters should be talking about numbers in the first interview. I'm going through the recruitment process right now and the numbers out of the gate are always lowball figures (possibly personalized to me), because of two reasons. Because they want to see…

> So the companies are legitimately balking at this because they'll have to pay their existing employees more if they put out an attractive posting....

Let's phrase this properly: companies are balking because they'll have to pay existing employees market rate.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#187

Post by testACCT321 »

jameshart wrote: post #139
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one. Those are going to be two vastly different numbers. Which one are you looking to pay for? If you have budget for a superstar, why would you settle for just-over-the-bar talent? I kind of find myself suspecting…

No post body was provided.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#188

Post by im3w1l »

jameshart wrote: post #139
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. > Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data. You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate , not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my ro…

> I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one. Those are going to be two vastly different numbers. Which one are you looking to pay for? If you have budget for a superstar, why would you settle for just-over-the-bar talent? I kind of find myself suspecting…

Well maybe the goal is increase features / month, and they want to hire a few people to do that. A just-over-the-bar will be a small increase, and a superstar will be a big increase. They don't particularly care about the mix as long as the total is big enough.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#189

Post by rednerrus »

gopalv wrote: post #107
rednerrus wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recruiters should be talking about numbers in the first interview. Employers should have a sense of what your number is and whether or not they can get there before moving forward with interviewing. If they're not doing that, they're wasting your time and their time.

> If they're not doing that, they're wasting your time and their time. Actually, they're getting paid for the their time. I'm not. I'm actually burning my time. > Recruiters should be talking about numbers in the first interview. I'm going through the recruitment process right now and the numbers out of the gate are always lowball figures (possibly personalized to me), because of two reasons. Because they want to see…

If they're asking your number and you're not being straight forward, what's the problem?

Them: "What's your number"? You: "$350k." Them: "Ok, cool lets move forward." or "That's a lot of money and we can't pay that much. Thanks for meeting with us."

I'm assuming that you've done your homework and know what a reasonable top of the range is. If that's the case, just say what your number is and let them decide if it's too much.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#190

Post by filoleg »

ghaff wrote: post #78
filoleg wrote: post #37

I genuinely wonder how this would work for non-cash portions of the total comp. Would they have to declare the dollar value of the shares issued? What about non-public companies that offer a significant chunk of the comp in illiquid stock options?Would they have to be included as a part of the salary range? Disclaimer: I am neither opposed nor in support of this. I don't mind taking that route and seeing how it works…

Presumably stock--and perhaps variable comp bonuses--would not be part of a listed salary range.

If that's truly the case, then it is gonna be a complete nothingburger for most devs. Same for finance, where a large (and, a lot of times, the largest) chunk of the total comp is in the annual bonus.

In that case, I don't understand the celebrations and arguments people keep having about how it is gonna affect "big tech". I guess it might end up being good for non-tech/only-cash-comped employees, so we will see.

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