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NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

nytimes.com

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Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#111

Post by chadash »

llbeansandrice wrote: post #69
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

> don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. As an employee, sounds like not my fuckin problem. I'm not about to go through 3 phone screens, a take-home test, a full-day onsite, etc. just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied. > I think it will be about $X Oh! So looks like it's not that hard to ball-park a number off the top of your head. I don't get this "how the world really w…

> just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied

I'm ok being denied. You set the bar and I don't meet it, fair enough... far worse is wasting my time when a simple discussion about salary at the start (at least after the first interview) could have saved us both time.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#112

Post by jedberg »

andrewstuart wrote: post #102
time_to_smile wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go ask your team lead/CEO/CTO how recruiting works. I've been the team lead and talk to my team lead about this a lot and I know of no serious tech companies that don't actively think about employee retention and recruiting a huge part of which is compensation. Leadership at my company spends a serious amount of time discussing and revising our TC targets. Any company that doesn't know what "they would be willing t…

So what is the precise number you pay your senior developers? Sorry to call you out, but I simply don't believe the answer is anything but "it depends on a range of factors". Unless it is a government job, but even then, likely it depends on a range of factors, and often even government clients flex their budget to meet their recruiting goals.

You know they don't pay a single number, but have a defined range for the role.

And if they find someone who is outside that range, they will bump them up to the next role with the bigger range.

When I worked at eBay the salary bands for each level were well defined and shared internally. If they needed to pay you more than the top of the range, they bumped you to the next level to do it.

It would be very easy for them to publish the ranges publicly.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#113

Post by joshuamorton »

jedberg wrote: post #103
Dracophoenix wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This law applies to anyone in New York with no stated exceptions for outliers. If he ever works for a company/satellite office there, whether remote or on-site, he's as much a member of the job market as anyone else. Any company interested in hiring him would obviously provide a massive number at the higher range.

But they would never make a job listing for the job. They would just reach out to him and ask for an interview. Actually they would reach out and ask to have a discussion about what he wants to do next, and it would be a multi-month effort of convincing him to even apply, including informal meet and greets with the team. There would never be an open req.

And when hired he would be hire into the role that has the salary range he requires and possibly some larger than average performance based compensation scheme, which is totally legal, but also possibly not because at the point that you're hired as a principal or distinguished eng the default compensation is still really high.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#114

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

jedberg wrote: post #67
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

It is hard to convince someone they are wrong when their salary depends on being right. But I'm going to try. I've done hiring myself as a founder, so I have some experience here. > The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already hav…

>> The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone.

> Then they need better data. A great way to get that would be looking at all the other job listings with salary ranges if they don't already have access to back channel data.

You're missing the point: the variable is the candidate, not the role. I know the market rate for a candidate that is just over-the-bar for my role, and I know that market rate for a super-star who can not only do this role, but is probably already capable of doing the next one.

> Then it should be multiple listings with different requirements, even if the only difference is years of experience.

So, what if you apply for a role that turns out to be wrong for you based on my assessment of you then I should reject you so you can re-apply for the other role? That's ridiculous.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#115

Post by supergeek133 »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

Big companies ABSOLUTELY know how much they are willing to pay. They have well defined pay bands/grades by geo area.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#116

Post by lr »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

And then you end up exactly where the company I work for ended up, and where a ton of other companies end up: The same people, doing the same work, with very similar experiences, getting paid drastically different salaries. It can get so bad, that the company then has to hire an outside agency to review salaries, and then make company-wide adjustments. Running a business is very, very expensive and involves lots of things (like proper HR) that have nothing to do with the business for which the business exists. If you don't want to actually run a business, then maybe give it up.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#117

Post by joe5150 »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

You contradict yourself when you say employers don't know what they would be willing to pay someone, but then somehow manage to come up with a number when they start recruiting. You even say you would post a job ad with that range? That's what the law wants, so I don't actually understand what you're arguing against here.

If it's genuinely true that a company has no idea what they might pay someone they want to hire, they're just not ready to hire someone. "It's that easy."

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#118

Post by welshwelsh »

CSMastermind wrote: post #91
llbeansandrice wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone. As an employee, sounds like not my fuckin problem. I'm not about to go through 3 phone screens, a take-home test, a full-day onsite, etc. just for the privilege to be low-balled or even worse denied. > I think it will be about $X Oh! So looks like it's not that hard to ball-park a number off the top of your head. I don't get this "how the world really w…

Why not legislate the other way around? Make it the law that you post how much you're willing to work for on your LinkedIn profile and that you have to supply it to employers at the start of an application process so neither side is wasting time. Seems like that would address all your complaints just as well.

Because that gives employers more leverage to push salaries down, and makes it more likely that workers will be exploited.

The point of this legislation is to push salaries up by forcing employers to reveal their hiring budget up front. That way, prospective employees can more easily shop around for the highest salary.

Re: NYC to require salary ranges be included in job postings

#119

Post by incone123 »

orev wrote: post #64
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

I'm a recruiter. I've known for a long time it drives people nuts that job ads don't have salary, or have a wide salary range. The fact is that many employers don't actually know what they would be willing to pay someone . Until they have met them, assessed them, heard what they salary target is and weighed it up against their skills and experience and calibrated it against the team. The conversation almost always go…

I think many here will disagree, but this is spot on. Having a fixed salary range also implies there’s a fixed/well-defined set of tasks for that role, which is only applicable to typical lower-level jobs that do repetitive tasks. Once you get into higher skilled positions, the roles become much more flexible and negotiable. The HN crowd is exactly the opposite type of people who would benefit from this. Job definiti…

While this applies to public advertisements, once you are employed then I don't see why you or the company can't renegotiate based on changed responsibilities.
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