Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites • Hacker News Board

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#441

Post by carapace » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 3:34 PM UTC

mecha_ghidorah wrote: post #436

carapace wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. I cannot believe the amount of strident anti-accessibility sentiment in this thread, it has to be coming mostly from the young and able-bodied? This has already been discussed and the question is settled, to the point of being actual law: civilized societies make allowances for people with disabilities. We are not some "Lord of the Flies" barbarians to say "f*ck the deaf" are we? It's 2022, captioning is a solv…

I definitely wouldn't describe myself as anti-accessibility: I think physical structures should be handicap accessible (with the caveat that I think private dwellings shouldn't be forced to be), I think government services should be built with accessibility in mind, etc. I do think the loss of previously recorded course videos ( https://reason.com/2017/03/07/berkeley-deletes-200000-free-o... ) that had been free in o…

God bless you for making a constructive comment. Seriously, thank you.

> I do think the loss of previously recorded course videos (https://reason.com/2017/03/07/berkeley-deletes-200000-free-o...) that had been free in order to prevent being sued is a net loss though, and I think there are most likely much better ways to incentivize accessibility than allowing people to sue "without harm".

I agree completely. I feel compelled to point out that these accessibility laws would never have gained traction if we (speaking generally) had made things accessible in the first place, eh?

The thing that really bothers me about people being anti-accessibility (and there was a lot of strident strident BS in this thread) is the blindingly oblivious argument from "enlightened" self-interest, to wit: you (speaking generally) may well become deaf someday, or blind, or paralyzed or something. It happens, all the time. (And here I would add something about OXO and how making things easier for seniors makes them easier for everybody, etc... but the kettle is about to boil...) :)

In any event, let's remember the end goal: Michael Levin et. al. makes organ regeneration a reality and there are no more handicapped people. Everyone everywhere has everything in good working order. And we live for centuries too, eh?

- - - -

(I get off on irony. That last sentence of yours has me giggling. Cheers, well met.)

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#442

Post by knewter » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 3:51 PM UTC

ivan_gammel wrote: post #372

knewter wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh yes, the ol' "only wealthy people may start a business" plan

Accessibility is effort, not money. It’s not rocket science, it’s not building pyramids, every hard working and intellectually capable person should be able to do it.

> Accessibility is effort, not money.

I've been paid to implement accessibility. I made a lot of money.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#443

Post by advisedwang » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

invalidname wrote: post #353

advisedwang wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It should be my prerogative as to whether or not I care about the disabled market In general, being accessible is expensive, time consuming and requires care and forethought. Back in the days when businesses did get to decide whether or not they cared about the disabled (pre ADA in the us, for example) they largely decided they did not. This created a class of people shut out of the world. This is a bad outcome. Ac…

The failure in these laws is the freedom to sue. That removes the burden from the government and places it on lawyers who try to capitalize on it. A lawyer can then use this as a money making scheme regardless of the size of an individual. This is the failure of the ADA too. This works well for large, well established businesses. Businesses with big turnover and investment. They also have the financial ability to add…

On the other hand, we can't rely on state attourneys to protect the rights of minorities. Many would, but they can just as easily not enforce such a law. In fact, because disabled people are a small voting block, elected state attourneys really are not incentivised to do so. (This is why we need rights in a democracy - protecting minority interests that a government representing majority interests is not incentivised to care about).

In general, giving government more power without strong guardrails about how it's used it isn't very effective at making people's lives better.

You could imagine ways to make the private right of action work. Perhaps penalties and remedies for frivolous lawsuits like anti-SLAPP statutes. Or make it so that you can take a product/building/whatever through some approval process with some regulatory agency after which the product/building/whatever is presumed to be accessible and lawsuits have a higher burdern.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#444

Post by aerostable_slug » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 4:33 PM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #360

aerostable_slug wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually quite inexpensive for most and very easy, but expense is of course always measured in relative terms.

Is it easy though? I had a professor do it for his own videos because ‘it is easy’; it is a horror show; everything is badly out of sync etc. I don’t think it’s easy for an average person at all. I am a programmer but I have 2 left hands where it comes to video or photo editing and then it gets expensive fast. People here saying ‘it costs only $150/hr to fix’ probably don’t provide anything free nor have a small busi…

I can't speak to your professor, but we regularly have many dozens of films subtitled and so far we've had sterling results and no complaints from our audience.

Agreed with the cost impact on a small business or nonprofit. We make money on the films so it's a no-brainer for us (and is legally required in places like Canada).

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#445

Post by mecha_ghidorah » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 10:08 PM UTC

carapace wrote: post #441

mecha_ghidorah wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely wouldn't describe myself as anti-accessibility: I think physical structures should be handicap accessible (with the caveat that I think private dwellings shouldn't be forced to be), I think government services should be built with accessibility in mind, etc. I do think the loss of previously recorded course videos ( https://reason.com/2017/03/07/berkeley-deletes-200000-free-o... ) that had been free in o…

God bless you for making a constructive comment. Seriously, thank you. > I do think the loss of previously recorded course videos ( https://reason.com/2017/03/07/berkeley-deletes-200000-free-o ...) that had been free in order to prevent being sued is a net loss though, and I think there are most likely much better ways to incentivize accessibility than allowing people to sue "without harm". I agree completely. I feel…

> I agree completely. I feel compelled to point out that these accessibility laws would never have gained traction if we (speaking generally) had made things accessible in the first place, eh?

Oh I totally agree that we need accessibility laws of some sort otherwise it would be almost entirely ignored, which is a terrible outcome. It is just think that clearly some places have crafted these laws in such a way as to also lead to some pretty terrible outcomes, and I personally think another approach would be better (I know this is very armchair general of me, I'm not an expert, and if people who work in this space think otherwise I'd be happy to listen).

I do think the enlightened self interest is an obvious argument, but I also would like to think that compassion alone would suffice for wanting to improve the quality of life for those who have been given a raw deal.

I'm glad my turn of phrase at the end was enjoyed.

Well met indeed.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#446

Post by dongkyun » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 10:22 PM UTC

parkingrift wrote: post #388

Spivak wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the issue is that “the disabled don’t need access to everything” ends up with the abled deciding what the disabled deserve to access. How shitty a life having to utter something like, “sorry no, I haven’t tried the new ramen shop, the state legislature decided that restaurants weren’t essential enough to require wheelchair access and the front door is up some stairs.” It in no way excuses the frankly bullshit…

>I think the issue is that “the disabled don’t need access to everything” ends up with the abled deciding what the disabled deserve to access. We’re talking about privately owned establishments. No one deserves to be able to go to these places. It’s a privilege to go, not a right. The disabled should have access to any public spaces, but extending that to private spaces is asinine. Sorry no, I haven’t been to the ram…

This is literally the same reasoning segregationists used during the Civil Rights Act lmfao. "Privately owned establishments" use public infrastructure and tax subsidies, why should people with disabilities be disproportionately and discriminatorily excluded from swaths of public life due to no fault of their own.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#447

Post by ivan_gammel » Tue, Oct 25, 2022, 11:22 AM UTC

knewter wrote: post #442

ivan_gammel wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accessibility is effort, not money. It’s not rocket science, it’s not building pyramids, every hard working and intellectually capable person should be able to do it.

> Accessibility is effort, not money. I've been paid to implement accessibility. I made a lot of money.

So what (not a question).

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#448

Post by Handytinge » Fri, Oct 28, 2022, 12:17 PM UTC

drc500free wrote: post #165

Forgeties79 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely do not understand how they can sleep at night. Thanks for pushing back.

It's no different from not having curb cuts on your sidewalk. Culturally tech companies have gotten away with selling non-compliant products and websites, and feel like it's unacceptable to be required to follow regulations because everyone has level-set their expectations around not doing that. A competent regulatory scheme would have had the government enforcing this from the beginning, instead of depending on priv…

For the non Americans:

A "sidewalk" is a footpath adjacent to a road.

A "curb cut" is ramp from footpath to road.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#449

Post by ViViDboarder » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 4:13 AM UTC

Arainach wrote: post #345

ViViDboarder wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes. Because if not each and every restaurant, who gets to pick and choose? If the restaurant owners, none. If the disabled, all. And there isn't really an in-between is there? So all is better than none. I think this is why some laws state “reasonable accommodations”. If a ramp is impossible or unaffordable with the restaurants margins, what should be the course of action? Should the restaurant close? If so, that…

Businesses don't have an inherent right to exist. If your business can't be profitable while paying your workers a liveable wage, maintaining safety for employees and customers, etc. then your business should fail.

Sure. That just means higher unemployment and fewer overall consumer options.

Re: Thanks to the Israeli accessibility law, I have to delete my websites

#450

Post by incone123 » Mon, Oct 31, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

jen20 wrote: post #370

incone123 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know how Israel's courts work but in England and Wales judges will seek to implement the will of Parliament. That's done by, among other things, interpreting words as they are ordinarily used. Do you know anyone who would expect 'subtitles' to mean text unrelated to the video?

> Do you know anyone who would expect 'subtitles' to mean text unrelated to the video? By this measure, I'd expect SUBtitles to be under the damn video, not overlaid on it.

You're not making a good faith argument.