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Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

today.uconn.edu

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#61

Post by operator-name »

larryliu wrote: post #17

Ketamine is a prescription medicine that can be taken oral, intranasal or IV drip. ECT is an inpatient procedure that need one anesthesiologist and one psychiatrist plus nurses to administer, two to three times weekly for three to four weeks. Who pays for the healthcare, definitely want to try the former and use the latter only if the former works poorly.

ECT, due to the potential side effects and Ketamine due to how recent it is are both near the "last lines of defence".

IRRC both of them cannot compare to psychotherapy, which has far higher effectiveness at the cost of far more resources.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#63

Post by operator-name »

warrenmiller wrote: post #4

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

Do you have a citation for that list, preferably that also has includes how common each side effect it?

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#64

Post by oldgradstudent »

aetherson wrote: post #33
tru3_power wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what are the upsides

"Not feeling incredibly depressed."

Or, more accurately, not reporting to the researchers that you're feeling incredibly depressed.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#65

Post by ddxxdd »

bglazer wrote: post #48
ddxxdd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A defic…

Curious what you mean by “particle level”? Like simulating every molecule in the body?

At this time, I mean every hormone and protein flowing in the bloodstream, along with the state of every single cell.

Essentially, enough detail to get a list of symptoms and bodily sensations, and predict the outcome of any potential blood test or urinalysis. Or, alternatively, enough detail to take the results of a blood test/urinalysis, and predict the state of every single tissue in the body.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#66

Post by operator-name »

andrewflnr wrote: post #19
warrenmiller wrote: post #4

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

If you take away my creativity and ability to learn, you may as well just kill me. That sounds like a recipe for depression in itself.

You're depressed, which has already destroyed your creativity and ability to learn. Nothing has worked. Your option is to ECT, which may help, or have adverse side effects.

Would you try it? If you've not got much to lose, why not? It's not as if suicide is suddenly no longer an option afterwards.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#68

Post by arthurofbabylon »

ddxxdd wrote: post #41
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A defic…

I’m not sure what you’re working on now - but the particle-level simulation seems exceptionally worthwhile to humanity and maybe uniquely suited to your skill and enthusiasm.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#69

Post by operator-name »

denzilla8080 wrote: post #13
stevenalowe wrote: post #3

“The side effect profiles of the two treatments differed, with ECT more likely to cause headaches, muscle pain and memory loss, while ketamine was more likely to cause dissociative symptoms, vertigo and double vision.” I’ll take milder effects over pain and memory loss, thanks. No mention of longevity of effect, or specific studies and who paid for them.

The headaches and muscle pain are temporary. But the memory loss is severe and while not truly hindering, definitely life altering. Years are just blurred together. Some things and people just aren’t there and it’s really hard for me to remember on my own. It more changes the relationship you have with your memory.

If you wouldn't mind me asking, when and what specific type of ECT did you undertake?

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#70

Post by operator-name »

augustuspolius wrote: post #28
JamesBarney wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the time you get to ECT for depression you've tried else for your more intolerable depression.

The way this is presented in the article could be dangerous. ECT with its potentially life-altering horrendous side effects is not an alternative to Ketamine with almost non existent negative long term side effects. Both treatments are recommended as the last resort (at least on paper Ketamine is recommended if anti-depressants do not work), with ECT being far more dangerous.

The cited paper does a much clearer job, but the article does make an attempt:

> Most people diagnosed with depression are offered an oral antidepressant (in combination with psychotherapy) as a first-line treatment option. But _if oral antidepressants don’t help_, or _if the person is at imminent risk of hurting themselves_, there are other, more rapid treatment options: ECT, and more recently ketamine or esketamine.

> “ECT is consistently more successful than ketamine” at helping _patients with serious depression_

> “We need to improve public awareness of ECT for _treatment-resistant depression_.”

(emphasis mine)

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