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Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

today.uconn.edu

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#41

Post by ddxxdd »

tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research.

According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which:

1. Help synthesize DNA,

2. Help repair/modify DNA,

3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body,

4. Activate Vitamin B12.

A deficiency in Vitamin B-9 can lead to a loss of appetite, weakness, heart palpitations, headaches, irritability, and anemia. Also interesting to note that a deficiency in Vitamin B-12 will cause the body to overcompensate and convert a large portion of Vitamin B-9 into the form that metabolizes Vitamin B12, which leads to a condition that mimics a deficiency of Vitamin B9.

One of these days, when I have enough free time, I want to develop a particle-level simulation of the human body, so that medical students, doctors, and curious laymen can see these processes in action on their personal computers. If I combine that with an affordable at-home blood test/diagnostic system, we will have a mechanism to bring affordable healthcare to every single person in the country. And perhaps a reliable method to find the true cause of a patient's depression, before prescribing them SSRI's or other psychiatric drugs.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#42

Post by sibeliuss »

stevenalowe wrote: post #3

“The side effect profiles of the two treatments differed, with ECT more likely to cause headaches, muscle pain and memory loss, while ketamine was more likely to cause dissociative symptoms, vertigo and double vision.” I’ll take milder effects over pain and memory loss, thanks. No mention of longevity of effect, or specific studies and who paid for them.

The musician Townes Van Zandt underwent ECT and the loss of his memory haunted him his whole (very tragic) life. It's well-known how deep of an impact that had on him, and not for the better.

As if the often pleasant, often interesting, often terrifying yet short term and proven harmless side-effects of Ketamine can even compare to the ECT! I would like to see how _much_ better ECT is, given all the factors. Additionally, one can do quick, repeat treatments with ketamine. I'm sure doctors would caution repeatedly getting hooked up to an ECT machine.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#43

Post by trentgreene »

ddxxdd wrote: post #41
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A defic…

If you ever want someone else to work with you on that, I atleast would be very interested

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#44

Post by operator-name »

tcj_phx wrote: post #40
chrsig wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half l…

That sounds like a horrible experience, and I hope you friend is being treated better now.

To be charitable and more specific, If you are stable enough there's nothing technically stopping you from not taking prescribed medication and self medicating - as long as you remain stable enough to not warrant involuntary treatment. The obvious risk is if your prescribed medication (or a combination of prescribed and self prescribed medication) is making an impact, you could get worse.

From this comment it sounds like there's a lot you're leaving out of this story, but I'd like like be caucious of making generalising statements from specific personally related scenarios.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#45

Post by chrsig »

tcj_phx wrote: post #40
chrsig wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions. Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

Most states have provisions for involuntary mental health treatment. Arizona's laws for forced mental health treatment are in ARS Title 36, Chapter 5: https://www.azleg.gov/arsDetail/?title=36 As soon as the doctors got their order for involuntary treatment in November 2015, they cornered my friend and injected her with a time-release version of haloperidol, then released her to her mother's house. A day and a half l…

I'm sorry your friend went through all of that. I've had friends and immediate family in similar situations. It's a genuinely impossible situation to navigate.

Sometimes these situations turn out tragically because the patient was involuntarily given drugs, sometimes they turn out tragically because the patient wasn't.

I'm surprised they went with a time release injection -- from the sounds of it, when you say "time release" you mean on the order of 30-90 days, not "12 hours". I'd have expected them to just work on stabilization and then moving to an outpatient program. I'm very surprised they'd have used it without any history of it being effective.

In a more recent tale with a family member undergoing an involuntary stay, I'd have wished they'd used a longer term haloperidol injection.

There's not a one size fits all solution, and it's hard to balance legislation around personal freedoms vs recognizing when the patient is a harm to themselves/others, or even capable of making informed rationale decisions.

> My observation is that agony-inducing drugs are not actually helpful for substance abuse.

Haloperidol isn't for substance abuse, so I wouldn't expect it to perform well at it.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#46

Post by operator-name »

tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

I find your conclusions from this specific scenario extremely dangerous and would warn others against generalising too far. I have reason to be in no doubt at the issues with mental health diagnosis, but speculating and generalisation is not useful.

To cite this, and the medical consensus of professionals and other studies:

> Meaning: Although ECT may be more efficacious than ketamine in the acute phase, _treatment options should be individualized and patient-centered, considering different adverse effect profiles and patient preferences._

(emphasis mine)

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#47

Post by heavyset_go »

ddxxdd wrote: post #41
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A defic…

The compound is a key product in the methionine cycle[1], which is responsible for synthesizing neurotransmitters like serotonin. Poor methylation in this cycle can reduce synthesis of rate-limiting compounds in the cycle, thus limiting production of neurotransmitters, perhaps inducing symptoms of mental illness.

Another product in this cycle is SAMe (S−adenosyl methionine), which has been marketed for decades as supplement for improving depression.

[1] https://www.creative-proteomics.com/services/methionine-cycl...

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#48

Post by bglazer »

ddxxdd wrote: post #41
tcj_phx wrote: post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

Interesting information... it prompted me to do more research. According to wikipedia, Vitamin B-9 is broken down by our bodies into a family of compounds called "THF", which: 1. Help synthesize DNA, 2. Help repair/modify DNA, 3. Help create the amino acid "Methionine", which is a precursor to other amino acids, and is thus important for the synthesis of many proteins inside the body, 4. Activate Vitamin B12. A defic…

Curious what you mean by “particle level”? Like simulating every molecule in the body?

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#50

Post by poulpy123 »

stevenalowe wrote: post #3

“The side effect profiles of the two treatments differed, with ECT more likely to cause headaches, muscle pain and memory loss, while ketamine was more likely to cause dissociative symptoms, vertigo and double vision.” I’ll take milder effects over pain and memory loss, thanks. No mention of longevity of effect, or specific studies and who paid for them.

I had esketamine treatment, and while not miraculous it was reasonably efficient. After the 2 or 3 first sessions where I found the "psychedelics" weird since I never tried this kind of drugs before, I got used of them and found them actually enjoyable
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