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Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

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Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more information on likeliness, permanence, and magnitude, both sets of symptoms sound potentially intolerable.

Anecdotal reports from recreational use (higher doses than medical) are that the dissociation, vertigo, and double vision only happen while you’re high, not after it wears off.

I am also confused by this comparison. Yes, Ketamine might cause dissociation… but that’s not a side effect, that’s a catalyst for the actual expected psychological effect.

It’s like saying that a side effect of drinking alcohol is feeling drunk.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#22

aren't the side effects of ECT quite severe though? "loss of creativity, drive and energy. difficulty concentrating. loss of emotional responses. difficulty learning new information."

Those are also the side effects of severe depression so you're not missing out on much.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#23
My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions.

Vitamin B-9 has to do with DNA synthesis... My source for physiology told me that even the mutants get enough Vitamin B-9 from an adequate diet, it's just poor methylators who rely on fortified food who are screwed. Deplin is the prescription form of Vitamin B-9. It's approved as an add-on therapy, for when patients don't respond well to the prescriptions that never work.

Usually 'mental health' diagnoses are manifestations of stress: emotional stress is the big one, but malnourishment is often a factor too. Stressed brains use more energy thinking about the stress all the time.

ECT should be retired from use. I heard once that brain damage causes the brain to increase production of the steroid allopregnanolone. The beneficial effect of the SSRI's seem to also be related to increased allopregnanolone, NOT to boosting serotonin levels.

I wonder if my friend's guardian [0] could consent to her getting electrocuted.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33307982

Edit: She remembers being depressed for as far back as her memories go. Someone on twitter says food fortification didn't really take off until the 1980's. Before then you had to explicitly buy "wonder bread" to get fortified flour, now you can basically assume white flour is fortified white flour.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more information on likeliness, permanence, and magnitude, both sets of symptoms sound potentially intolerable.

People do ketamine recreationally; the symptoms really aren't intolerably bad, I'm led to believe.

And the therapeutic dose in this case seems to be roughly 1/2-1/3 of what people do recreationally.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more information on likeliness, permanence, and magnitude, both sets of symptoms sound potentially intolerable.

Anecdotal reports from recreational use (higher doses than medical) are that the dissociation, vertigo, and double vision only happen while you’re high, not after it wears off.

I've taken some really, really high doses of ketamine recreationally, it all wears off after a few hours at worst.

The disassociation is often a desired effect, it can be incredibly enjoyable.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more information on likeliness, permanence, and magnitude, both sets of symptoms sound potentially intolerable.

People do ketamine recreationally; the symptoms really aren't intolerably bad, I'm led to believe.

The worst side effect recreationally is usually mild nausea.

The other "side effects" are generally part of its desirable properties ;)

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without more information on likeliness, permanence, and magnitude, both sets of symptoms sound potentially intolerable.

By the time you get to ECT for depression you've tried else for your more intolerable depression.

The way this is presented in the article could be dangerous. ECT with its potentially life-altering horrendous side effects is not an alternative to Ketamine with almost non existent negative long term side effects. Both treatments are recommended as the last resort (at least on paper Ketamine is recommended if anti-depressants do not work), with ECT being far more dangerous.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#29
post #23

My friend figured out for herself, when she was in her 30's, that she's a poor methylator who can't turn the food fortification folic acid into a usable form of Vitamin B-9. She once told me that adding L-Methylfolate to her routine was like flipping a switch from "depressed" to "not-depressed". But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so t…

> But the doctors had already decided she was being "stabilized" by the anti-psychotic prescriptions they forced on her, so they just added this vitamin to their cocktail of prescriptions.

Outside of very specific circumstances during hospitalization, doctors can't actually force you to take any medication.

Re: Study: Electroshock therapy more successful for depression than ketamine

#30

“The side effect profiles of the two treatments differed, with ECT more likely to cause headaches, muscle pain and memory loss, while ketamine was more likely to cause dissociative symptoms, vertigo and double vision.” I’ll take milder effects over pain and memory loss, thanks. No mention of longevity of effect, or specific studies and who paid for them.

The headaches and muscle pain are temporary. But the memory loss is severe and while not truly hindering, definitely life altering. Years are just blurred together. Some things and people just aren’t there and it’s really hard for me to remember on my own. It more changes the relationship you have with your memory.

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