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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#371

Post by actually_a_dog »

crazygringo wrote: post #356
Meekro wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know when all of this happened to you, but these days there's no excuse. I just googled for "how to increase my sat score" and the first result was this collegeboard.org page[1] called "How to Improve Your SAT Score." It referred me to the Khan Academy's free SAT practice course[2]. [1] https://blog.collegeboard.org/how-to-improve-your-sat-score [2] https://www.khanacademy.org/sat/confirmed

Let me reiterate: that requires for it occur to a student that you even can increase your SAT score. That remains non-obvious. After all, IQ tests aren't supposed to be something you can prepare for. So why should the SAT be, if it's this kind of supposedly holistic aptitude test? Why isn't "school overall" all the possible preparation you could do? Again, the difficulty isn't primarily in getting the extra resources…

That’s right. And guess who does know that SAT prep is a thing and takes full advantage of it? If you said “rich kids and their parents,” you win the prize.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#372

Post by dirtyid »

rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

>many Asians support these measures

(East) Asians that support these measures get the media platform. In East Asian dominant neighbourhoods I've been in, opposing these measures are one of the few things that has politically activated the community in decades.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#373

Post by Meekro »

actually_a_dog wrote: post #371
crazygringo wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me reiterate: that requires for it occur to a student that you even can increase your SAT score. That remains non-obvious. After all, IQ tests aren't supposed to be something you can prepare for. So why should the SAT be, if it's this kind of supposedly holistic aptitude test? Why isn't "school overall" all the possible preparation you could do? Again, the difficulty isn't primarily in getting the extra resources…

That’s right. And guess who does know that SAT prep is a thing and takes full advantage of it? If you said “rich kids and their parents,” you win the prize.

Not just the rich. I was an immigrant kid, and knew plenty of other immigrant kids. None of our families had much money, but we all had a do-or-die attitude about education and the SAT. You can bet we all knew about prep options, scholarships, etc. and we milked every advantage for all it was worth.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#374

Post by ecshafer »

alistairSH wrote: post #321
BobbyJo wrote: post #285

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

Part of the argument for dropping the SAT is that the SAT has been shown to be a proxy for family socio-economic status and is no better an indicator of success at college than GPA, honor/AP/IB course participation, and extracurriculars. (I’m not making that argument myself, I haven’t seen numbers explained well enough to form a solid opinion)

There are a lot of issues with this argument which any administrator should immediately see the issue with.

GPA: Schools weigh GPA differently. One thing I saw was that some schools with honors / AP you can get above a 4.0 to the point of a 5/4. Also GPA can be messed up when someone has a bad home life, or works a job.

honors/ap/ib: These are often related to which school you go to. Poor schools have few to no AP classes available. My school had 2 AP courses available, 0 IB. I was shocked when I went to college and talked to people that had 10 or 20 AP classes. Sure anyone can just take the AP exam, but I didn't know that at the time.

Extracurriculars: Bad and poor schools have fewer extracurriculars.

When you compare good schools (which are in wealthier more exclusive neighborhoods) with bad schools, not even accounting for private schools, its absolutely astounding the differences.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#375

Post by stale2002 »

WalterBright wrote: post #352
stale2002 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep. This is a worthless distinction, that is correct only on an irrelevant technically. The point being, that when people prepare for the test, they get better scores. Yes, there are multiple ways to prepare for a test. But preparing is a good thing, regardless of what you call it, or if you are saying that regular math class also covers it.

What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test, not actually learning the material the test covers.

> What I mean by "test prep" is learning how to game the test

You'd also be wrong here. Let me give you a simple example, that might not be immediately apparent to someone who doesn't know the rules of these tests.

At one point in time, on some tests, there was a "guessing penalty" for getting a wrong answer.

Having a basic understanding of how that works, and different guessing strategies, can increase your score.

EX: questions like should you guess? Should you rule out answers, and guess on the remaining?

There are even other things to think about, such as one's strategy for how long to spend on a question, and if/when you should give up on that one.

A person not experienced in test taking, might make a mistake of spending too much time on one single question, for example, when instead it could make more sense to skim the test first, for easy questions, and answer those first, so you don't run out of time and miss easy points.

Just learning the material doesn't automatically prevent you from making this mistake.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#376

Post by ratsmack »

thelock85 wrote: post #363
ratsmack wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is parroted constantly regarding many things and not a shred of evidence is ever required.

The evidence is literally in the federal and state legislation passed since late 1800s to support public education with extreme prejudice toward women and minorities. And the subsequent battle to make the system inclusive, culminating with the 1964 Elementary and Secondary Education Act (commonly grouped with “civil rights acts”). And even this law is continuously reauthorized by both sides on the aisle in the name o…

> (most recently “No Child Left Behind” and “Every Student Succeeds”)

And now for the worst thing that ever happened to the government education system.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#377

Post by Meekro »

crazygringo wrote: post #356
Meekro wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know when all of this happened to you, but these days there's no excuse. I just googled for "how to increase my sat score" and the first result was this collegeboard.org page[1] called "How to Improve Your SAT Score." It referred me to the Khan Academy's free SAT practice course[2]. [1] https://blog.collegeboard.org/how-to-improve-your-sat-score [2] https://www.khanacademy.org/sat/confirmed

Let me reiterate: that requires for it occur to a student that you even can increase your SAT score. That remains non-obvious. After all, IQ tests aren't supposed to be something you can prepare for. So why should the SAT be, if it's this kind of supposedly holistic aptitude test? Why isn't "school overall" all the possible preparation you could do? Again, the difficulty isn't primarily in getting the extra resources…

So what if they call themselves an aptitude test? Believing what it says on the label is naive. I prefer to think of it as Jordan Peterson would say: it's a dragon guarding the treasure you wish to obtain. Your goal is to find a way to slay it. Family money can help, but I can tell you from experience that it's not a requirement. Some kids fully devoted themselves to the slaying of this dragon; others had a more "whatever happens, happens" attitude.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#378

Post by Izkata »

atonse wrote: post #294
metalforever wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can answer this because I was in this position. Parents couldnt afford the gas. They worked long hours to make ends meet and couldn’t take time to drive me to this stuff even if they had the gas money. Finally, there’s just not a lot of ECs available in a lot of poor areas , like the one I came from. I filled that space in the app talking about my hobbies instead because there was no money. Yeah.

Not sure where you went to school but I went to a public school in DC. Both my immigrant parents worked crazy hours so I spent my evenings playing with friends and in various clubs. Computer Club, Orchestra (early morning practice), various sports like tennis and soccer. None of it cost my parents a penny, it was all free. Even school uniforms were free. I know generally in public schools, things are almost always fr…

Same here. You were expected to find your own way home afterwards since the buses were long gone (parents drive you, upperclassmen gives you a ride, bike, walk, etc, so I guess cost of gas could factor in here), but in general none of the clubs cost anything to join.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#379

Post by actionablefiber »

WalterBright wrote: post #368
actionablefiber wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are…

We're talking high school, not elementary school. College admissions don't look at elementary school activities. High schoolers can walk around unattended. Even a quarter mile, both ways. It's not a big deal. In the summer I often try to get in 5 miles a day of running/walking. > incredible luxury Don't overstate your case. The irony in this thread is all the complaining about "can't do things that will look good on…

> High schoolers can walk around unattended. Even a quarter mile, both ways. It's not a big deal. In the summer I often try to get in 5 miles a day of running/walking.

Extremely location dependent. Where I live today, in Virginia very close to DC, I commute by bike and do lots of biking/walking for fun and to run errands. What you are saying about walking around as a means of getting from place to place is just completely untrue in many parts of the United States.

I made a specific point about my ES/MS because of how egregious it was to have them at a half mile's walk away but with unacceptably dangerous terrain, in the very place I grew up. My HS was a couple miles away and, until ~2010 when they built a protected ~800ft long MUP, would have required walking/riding on the highway to reach without a car as well.

The point of that is that if you live in an area like this and your parents work, you are extremely handicapped in what you can do by yourself. You would need a third car to get yourself around and if you cannot manage that then you are completely subservient to your parents' availability and your local school bus schedules for all of your transportation needs. Which has repercussions on clubs, extracurriculars, your social life, really the full range of experiences you can have growing up.

When I was in K-12 my life consisted mainly of school, sleep, and playing video games in the basement. Now that I am in a city and can go wherever I want whenever I want I find I am extremely active and social and have many different hobbies.

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