Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

361–370 of 602 posts

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#361

Post by rahimnathwani »

bushbaba wrote: post #260
WalterBright wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of test prep is way, way overblown. Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars. The local public library has them for free. yootoob is loaded with test prep videos. There are no excuses. If you want to prep for the test, 1. read lots of books meant for ad…

Test prep is not overblown. Prior to test-prep I got a 630 on my math section. Post test prep I got an 800. Why? Prior to test prep I was solving the problems as I was taught in calculus. Deriving equations. The test prep re-inforced memorizing key formulas and how to think not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's faster to validate if a given answer is correct. SAT test prep do…

I've never taken the SAT, but I did take the GMAT. IIRC I used books by Kaplan and The Princeton Review.

Preparation absolutely did help. I didn't develop any new generally-applicable skills, but I did:

1. Practice the style of essays these tests require.

2. Improve my speed at spotting specific types of incorrect answers.

3. Learn a few grammatical rules that were different from the way I learned English growing up. (It was a long time ago, and sadly I don't remember the specifics.)

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#362

Post by int_19h »

mynameishere wrote: post #27

They are very upfront in terms of rhetoric about wanting more black and Hispanic students, but their policies are a lot of shuck-n-jive, trying to get that result while pretending to be fair. Nothing has worked so far. The pretending-to-be-fair sure hasn't either. So, one thing that will work and keep it all simple: Just establish quotas. "We will admit the highest scoring black students until we hit x%." But I suppo…

Hard quotas were already tried, litigated, and declared illegal by the Supreme Court - in the very same decision that allowed affirmative action in general.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regents_of_the_University_of_C...

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#363

Post by thelock85 »

ratsmack wrote: post #346
humanizersequel wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"that System is designed to keep minorities out" That is an extraordinary claim to make with such poorly defined terms and lack of evidence.

This argument is parroted constantly regarding many things and not a shred of evidence is ever required.

The evidence is literally in the federal and state legislation passed since late 1800s to support public education with extreme prejudice toward women and minorities. And the subsequent battle to make the system inclusive, culminating with the 1964 Elementary and Secondary Education Act (commonly grouped with “civil rights acts”). And even this law is continuously reauthorized by both sides on the aisle in the name of less discrimination (most recently “No Child Left Behind” and “Every Student Succeeds”).

It is very true that “systemic discrimination” is an argument often parroted without evidence, especially in audiences that prefer rigorous scientific method to be persuaded. But it’s also true that counter arguments often lack evidence that systems are inclusive, and almost never take on anthropological context which take time and effort to build.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#364

Post by Der_Einzige »

thegrimmest wrote: post #177
kewrkewm53 wrote: post #68

It seems like modern wokeism was designed to make it easier for rich elites to exploit their privilege. Stuff like this makes it easier for lazy kids with rich and connected parents to get into best colleges/universities. All the talk about race and gender also conveniently turns attention away form real solutions that could help the underprivileged, like progressive taxation, which the rich elites oppose. At least M…

I think this implies a personal philosophy along the lines of negative utilitarianism. I'm not sure everyone shares that.

Oh, you mean the correct one?

Well, we need to make them understand that some ethical systems are better than others. Negative util is truthtil.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#366

Post by actionablefiber »

andrepd wrote: post #350
actionablefiber wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are…

/r/fuckcars moment, but yes you're absolutely right. Transportation in the US seems to be getting worse as time passes, it's actually incredible.

Yes, absolutely an /r/fuckcars moment, growing up in suburbia with no survivable means of transportation besides the car made me extremely receptive to the thesis of that subreddit.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#367

Post by dirtyid »

alistairSH wrote: post #321
BobbyJo wrote: post #285

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

Part of the argument for dropping the SAT is that the SAT has been shown to be a proxy for family socio-economic status and is no better an indicator of success at college than GPA, honor/AP/IB course participation, and extracurriculars. (I’m not making that argument myself, I haven’t seen numbers explained well enough to form a solid opinion)

You can watch SAT prep videos and pirate prep books for free. GPA gets juiced all the time. Honor AP/IB had a solid premium. Very few extra curriculars that don't cost money / resources.

The handful of kids (including me) that didn't pay 5 digits for fancy SAT prep at my school poured over some study guides and watched pirated VCDs and ended up doing better than kids who half hearted their private prep.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#368

Post by WalterBright »

actionablefiber wrote: post #319
WalterBright wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. The Boy Scouts didn't run on money. A chess club, book club, drama club, dance club, photography club, math club, etc., don't require money. Besides, creating something from nothing is going to look a lot better on an application than following a course that is laid out by instructors and papered with cash.

> I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are…

We're talking high school, not elementary school. College admissions don't look at elementary school activities.

High schoolers can walk around unattended. Even a quarter mile, both ways. It's not a big deal. In the summer I often try to get in 5 miles a day of running/walking.

> incredible luxury

Don't overstate your case.

The irony in this thread is all the complaining about "can't do things that will look good on a college application" just means that another student who does find a way around obstacles is going to be the one admitted. Surmounting obstacles makes one a standout candidate.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#369

Post by HarveyBungus »

1) The SAT is obviously a superior and more objective indicator of "will do well on schoolwork" than the other components of college applications. Essays on political topics, biggest weaknesses, and a time you had to overcome a challenge are obviously less standardized, more subject to whims of reviewer, and this is why they are being promoted. The idea that there are kids with terrible scores but great portfolios of work worthy of admission seems wrong to me. The people with portfolios of work were likely already getting in.

2) "If you can study for the SAT that defeats the point" is wrong. Nassim Taleb made a point of demonstrating that these tests are study-able. The idea that you can't really study for the SAT is loserthink promoted by the SAT. Nearly everyone I know who wanted to succeed in school studied multiple times, took the test multiple times, and greatly improved their scores. It might still be unfair insofar as the better-preparedbetter-supplied kids get a head start but if you grind out a 1600 from a bad school that is still impressive and demonstrates hard work.

3) The solution to inequities in SAT/admissions is to devalue education via school, a la Caplan/ScottAlexander.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#370

Post by WalterBright »

pixl97 wrote: post #351
WalterBright wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then create your own extracurricular activity. There aren't any rules about it. It just has to be something that shows initiative, drive, and ability to accomplish something significant. I did things like build a gokart out of scrap (had a lot of fun with that, too!). No adults were involved in any way.

Next you're going to tell this group to lift themselves up by their bootstraps....

Overcoming obstacles makes one an attractive candidate for admission.
Post reply on HN