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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#261

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

overrun11 wrote: post #194
mschuster91 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with "quantitative" tests is that they are not without their own bias - they select for students that had the luck (or the right parentage) to go to either a private school or to a public school in a well-funded school district. The result is that the student base will be overwhelmingly white rich kids, which is pretty problematic (see e.g. [1], fresh out of the press). Additionally, at least when one goe…

> they select for students that had the luck (or the right parentage) to go to either a private school or to a public school in a well-funded school district. They select for math ability, it just so happens that students with access to great resources get better at math than those without them. > The result is that the student base will be overwhelmingly white rich kids, which is pretty problematic Pretty clearly no…

> They select for math ability, it just so happens that students with access to great resources get better at math than those without them.

So we just throw our hands up and lament that those without preexisting opportunities stay down?

I completely disagree. Colleges should be looking for high ceiling students who have the potential to do great things if the college throws their resources at the kid for four years.

> A students innate ability is irrelevant for college admissions. What matters is what are your actual capabilities. Are you capable doing mathematics at the highest level or are you not?

Last time I checked, the whole point of college is to develop these skills!

Should every single person who didn't get to take advanced math in high school be immediately disqualified from studying high level math, even if they have the potential to do incredibly well given the tools? This isn't to say that students who have the foundation should be kept down, more that those without it shouldn't be excluded if they have the potential to succeed.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#262

Post by objclxt »

WalterBright wrote: post #224
rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

The value of test prep is way, way overblown. Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars. The local public library has them for free. yootoob is loaded with test prep videos. There are no excuses. If you want to prep for the test, 1. read lots of books meant for ad…

> Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars [...] There are no excuses.

Not quite. You have assumed that money is the only barrier, but that is not the case.

Arguing that "test prep is free - or nearly free - so anyone must be able to prep", doesn't account for the fact that both money and time are barriers to test prep.

What if you have no time prep because you must support your family through work? You have no free time to prep - or do any extracurricular - because you have a job. This is not uncommon! Or you have a parent or guardian who is incapacitated in some way and you must act as their care-giver? Again, not uncommon.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#263

Post by bushbaba »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #6
onos wrote: post #2

USA is rich in universities. I wish people would focus less on the rankings and looking good credential aspect of college, and more on using it as an opportunity to learn / actually getting good at something. If we did the latter, we’d realize that people could go to pretty much any university (or coursera!) and get a high quality education here.

You are absolutely missing one of the primary points of US universities, which is to maintain a social hierarchy. I mean, if you just want to learn stuff and get a good education, there are loads of resources where you can do that, often for free or near free. College is about much more than just learning new things, and if that's the only framework through which you value a college education, you'll be doomed to mis…

You get 1000 resumes for a job. How do you drop 95% of the applicants. One easy way is to look at the University and GPA as a quick snuff test. After running that cheap low-pass filter you now only have 50 Resumes. You now spend ~3mins on each of those resumes to determine the 10 people you plan to interview.

That's why university matters, it helps you get past the first level of screening. It's also fair of employers to assume that the average Top 25 university graduate is better than the AVERAGE bottom 50% university graduate.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#264

Post by bushbaba »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #250
nO0b wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malcolm Gladwell explains why it's statistically FAR better to be among the smartest kids at a 2nd or 3rd tier school than struggling to get into some elite institution where you will be below average among your peers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UEwbRWFZVc&t=220s If you're borrowing money to pay for a degree, going to a school where you are not at the very top of the class is really taking a big risk.

that's such a loser mindset, you should want to be challenged and pushed by peers stronger than you edit: I agree that the first part of this comment is too harsh, see child thread

What! A 2nd tier school still has strong peers which you can surround yourself in. If you're at the top of a 2nd tier school you can push yourself to be near the PHD researchers and graduate students giving you similar academic peer rigor.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#265

Post by themitigating »

pseudo0 wrote: post #212
themitigating wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm angry about the loss of abortion rights federally, the rise of Christian nationalism, politicians lying about election fraud, people calling their enemies pedophiles and communists, politicans not knowing what those words mean, and facism What is this center you think we are going back to because all I see are far right politicans and the end of American democracy

It's weird how the "Christian nationalism" meme has been pushed by the usual suspects when US church attendance is at an all-time low, and religious influence on politics is a shadow of its former self. My guess is it's a mixture of obsession with The Handmaid's Tale, and the need for an alternative pejorative term that can be applied to black and Hispanic conservatives.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/14/1073215412/christian-national...

Evangelicals are key backers of the republican party.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#267

Post by someguydave »

rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

Do you have a citation that demonstrates the effectiveness of test prep?

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#268

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

bushbaba wrote: post #264
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's such a loser mindset, you should want to be challenged and pushed by peers stronger than you edit: I agree that the first part of this comment is too harsh, see child thread

What! A 2nd tier school still has strong peers which you can surround yourself in. If you're at the top of a 2nd tier school you can push yourself to be near the PHD researchers and graduate students giving you similar academic peer rigor.

I agree with you from an academic standpoint! Maybe my comment was too harsh, I think surrounding yourself with PHD researchers and graduate students counts as challenging and pushing yourself.

But it's more fun when the people pushing you are your friends and peers. In contrast, how many PHD researchers with a spouse and kids want to study and get coffee with a 19 year old undergrad?

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#269

Post by dragonwriter »

rayiner wrote: post #100

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

> Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed.

Objective metrics can easily be gamed, and usually are, at the moment they are chosen. Metrics are almost always imperfect proxies, and the choice of metric is almost always driven by chosing the one that produces the most desirable results to the decision maker that can be sold given the notional purpose.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#270

Post by josephcsible »

objclxt wrote: post #262
WalterBright wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of test prep is way, way overblown. Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars. The local public library has them for free. yootoob is loaded with test prep videos. There are no excuses. If you want to prep for the test, 1. read lots of books meant for ad…

> Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars [...] There are no excuses. Not quite. You have assumed that money is the only barrier, but that is not the case. Arguing that "test prep is free - or nearly free - so anyone must be able to prep", doesn't account for th…

> Or you have a parent or guardian who is incapacitated in some way and you must act as their care-giver? Again, not uncommon.

It's very uncommon for minor children to have to act as caregivers for their parents.

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