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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#341

Post by andrepd »

gumby wrote: post #252

Why even pretend that admission is in some sense "fair"? I don't mean this as a "anti-woke" or "pro-woke" harangue, or as a middle school cynical pose. Admission in the USA is a manual and largely arbitrary process. Just like judges' rulings, it's influenced by which person happened to read the application, what they had for breakfast and what time of day it is. Plus random factors like the orchestra's french horn pl…

>You care about fairness and justice? Well why don't you simply... not? Then your problem is gone.

Well that's hardly an interesting solution is it? x) Yes things are not good, and they might never be perfect. But that can be better.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#342

Post by WalterBright »

erdos4d wrote: post #299
geraldyo wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

The math part is not so bad, but I definitely would agree that the verbal/written strongly favors students educated in affluent private schools. You just not going to get that vocab prep down in a poor public school with a lot of minorities. The SAT tests in the language of the US white elite.

Reading books targeted at adults will help immensely with vocabulary. It's fun, too. I read a lot of scifi in high school.

I suspect that the only way to get a large vocabulary is to do a lot of reading. Certainly, watching TV won't do it (TV vocabulary is around 3000 words).

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#343

Post by dlg »

MereInterest wrote: post #322
crazygringo wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. I think it's important to realize just how extremely non-obvious this is, though, for many high school sophomores/juniors. I went to a decent high school and was in honors classes, and even I would have had zero idea test prep was even a thing, if a single science teacher hadn't randomly mentioned it in class once. I went to the school library an…

Especially because the entire purported schtick of the SAT is to measure aptitude (the "A" in the acronym). In principle, if the SAT is true to its name, getting a study book shouldn't help at all. But since study guides or repeated testing does improve the score, it can't be a true measurement of aptitude.

It changed its name from the Scholastic Aptitude Test in 1990. (Over time they’ve also eliminated some of the sections most correlated with IQ.)

There’s a good history of the SAT and where it succeeded and failed in its goal of making college admissions more fair, The Big Test by Nicholas Lehmann.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#344

Post by WalterBright »

andrepd wrote: post #341
gumby wrote: post #252

Why even pretend that admission is in some sense "fair"? I don't mean this as a "anti-woke" or "pro-woke" harangue, or as a middle school cynical pose. Admission in the USA is a manual and largely arbitrary process. Just like judges' rulings, it's influenced by which person happened to read the application, what they had for breakfast and what time of day it is. Plus random factors like the orchestra's french horn pl…

>You care about fairness and justice? Well why don't you simply... not? Then your problem is gone. Well that's hardly an interesting solution is it? x) Yes things are not good, and they might never be perfect. But that can be better.

A point is reached in that any improvement in fairness to one group will decrease fairness to another.

For example, I'm bald. That's unfair. At some point, one has to just accept it and move on.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#345

Post by dougSF70 »

analyst74 wrote: post #295
geraldyo wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

People are not arguing SAT is 100% fair, but that it's most fair compared to alternatives.

I agree, it also provides a counterpoint to GPA scores. These scores are not standardized and are subject to school and school district policy.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#346

Post by ratsmack »

humanizersequel wrote: post #292
geraldyo wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

"that System is designed to keep minorities out" That is an extraordinary claim to make with such poorly defined terms and lack of evidence.

This argument is parroted constantly regarding many things and not a shred of evidence is ever required.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#347

Post by pannSun »

rayiner wrote: post #337
pannSun wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If culturally-discriminating WASP admissions officers were the main barrier, one would not expect non-Jewish whites to be the most underrepresented group in the Ivy League. Circa 2019, looking at non-international students only: Ivy League US Ratio Mean SAT score [1] Jewish 17.2% 2.4% 7.16 n/a Asian 19.6% 5.3% 3.71 1216 White (incl. Jewish) 50.3% 61.5% 0.82 1148 Hispanic 11.4% 17.6% 0.65 1043 Black 7.8% 12.7% 0.61 96…

Sure you would. WASPs don’t like Jews and never have. Only the justifications have changed.

It's the opposite. In a poll, WASPs gave Jews the 2nd highest rating (69, higher than Catholics, rating only themselves higher at 82), while Jews rated themselves at 89, and gave Evangelical Christians the lowest rating, 34.

In other words, WASPs have a positive view of Jews, while Jews have a very negative view of WASPs.

Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2014/07/16/how-american... 2nd table

In fact, no country has a more positive view of Jews than the US (at least among those polled by Pew research): https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2008/09/17/chapter-1-view... - 2nd graph

But this sampled all US residents, not just WASPs.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#348

Post by Meekro »

crazygringo wrote: post #307
BobbyJo wrote: post #285

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

> You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. I think it's important to realize just how extremely non-obvious this is, though, for many high school sophomores/juniors. I went to a decent high school and was in honors classes, and even I would have had zero idea test prep was even a thing, if a single science teacher hadn't randomly mentioned it in class once. I went to the school library an…

I don't know when all of this happened to you, but these days there's no excuse. I just googled for "how to increase my sat score" and the first result was this collegeboard.org page[1] called "How to Improve Your SAT Score." It referred me to the Khan Academy's free SAT practice course[2].

[1] https://blog.collegeboard.org/how-to-improve-your-sat-score [2] https://www.khanacademy.org/sat/confirmed

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#349

Post by BobbyJo »

MereInterest wrote: post #322
crazygringo wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. I think it's important to realize just how extremely non-obvious this is, though, for many high school sophomores/juniors. I went to a decent high school and was in honors classes, and even I would have had zero idea test prep was even a thing, if a single science teacher hadn't randomly mentioned it in class once. I went to the school library an…

Especially because the entire purported schtick of the SAT is to measure aptitude (the "A" in the acronym). In principle, if the SAT is true to its name, getting a study book shouldn't help at all. But since study guides or repeated testing does improve the score, it can't be a true measurement of aptitude.

I don't think they meant aptitude in the strictest sense. You ability to learn and apply ideas is an aptitude in and of itself. That is something studying is a part of demonstrating, and the the type of aptitude these tests, I believe, are intended to measure.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#350

Post by andrepd »

actionablefiber wrote: post #319
WalterBright wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. The Boy Scouts didn't run on money. A chess club, book club, drama club, dance club, photography club, math club, etc., don't require money. Besides, creating something from nothing is going to look a lot better on an application than following a course that is laid out by instructors and papered with cash.

> I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. In the United States in the 2020s being able to walk yourself to and from school without A) having your life in grave danger from motor vehicle traffic and B) having someone call CPS or the police on your parents is an incredible luxury. The neighborhood where I grew up was built in the early 90s and its elementary school and middle school are…

/r/fuckcars moment, but yes you're absolutely right. Transportation in the US seems to be getting worse as time passes, it's actually incredible.
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