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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

hechingerreport.org

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#331

I thought that was the actual point of ditching admission testing. They wanted to return to the pre-SAT days when they could just admit any legacy, no matter how unacademically suited an alumn(us|a)'s progeny was.

Matt Parlmer on Twitter recently stated it this way:

> The university is primarily for theological indoctrination and secondarily for rich kids to get the same credentials as smart kids so they can maintain their status

> This has not changed one iota since Oxford was chartered, it's what the system is for, take the Caplanpill

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With all due respect, college admissions have drastically changed over the past forty to fifty years!

How? And why wouldn't a job look good? A job shows a person is capable of being responsible, independent, and deferred gratification.

A job might look good, but not good enough to offset poor test results or grades due to hours spent working instead of prepping and studying.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#333
post #98

For everyone who finds the removal of admission tests ridiculous, how do y'all feel about leetcode?

I don't expect my employees to solve problems on the spot, why would I expect it of interviewees? I give them a short take-home challenge, and it has worked well so far - I have a great team.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#334

The greatest source of admissions inequity is childhood socioeconomic status. Dropping the SAT is so obviously not a fix for that I question the competency of the administrators who thought doing so was a good idea. The SAT is probably the most attainable piece of the application process for a poor kid to succeed at. You literally just need a guide book or two and enough time to study. One good smart friend helps if…

Part of the argument for dropping the SAT is that the SAT has been shown to be a proxy for family socio-economic status and is no better an indicator of success at college than GPA, honor/AP/IB course participation, and extracurriculars. (I’m not making that argument myself, I haven’t seen numbers explained well enough to form a solid opinion)

Almost everything colleges use to admit students is a proxy for socioeconomic status. Some things, like extracurriculars, could be far more correlated to SES. The only exception would be when a student gets points for being from a race or neighborhood that tends to be less affluent.

Which raises the question: why single out the SAT?

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test prep is not overblown. Prior to test-prep I got a 630 on my math section. Post test prep I got an 800. Why? Prior to test prep I was solving the problems as I was taught in calculus. Deriving equations. The test prep re-inforced memorizing key formulas and how to think not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's faster to validate if a given answer is correct. SAT test prep do…

You'll wind up just knowing the formulas from paying attention in math class, and especially from doing all the homework problems and taking all the math classes your high school offers. To be sure, maybe your high school is deficient in teaching math (mine was). For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep. > not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's f…

> For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep.

This is a worthless distinction, that is correct only on an irrelevant technically.

The point being, that when people prepare for the test, they get better scores.

Yes, there are multiple ways to prepare for a test. But preparing is a good thing, regardless of what you call it, or if you are saying that regular math class also covers it.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Test prep is not overblown. Prior to test-prep I got a 630 on my math section. Post test prep I got an 800. Why? Prior to test prep I was solving the problems as I was taught in calculus. Deriving equations. The test prep re-inforced memorizing key formulas and how to think not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's faster to validate if a given answer is correct. SAT test prep do…

You'll wind up just knowing the formulas from paying attention in math class, and especially from doing all the homework problems and taking all the math classes your high school offers. To be sure, maybe your high school is deficient in teaching math (mine was). For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep. > not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's f…

I think your metric of a deficient high school is clearly lacking. My high school math class was taught by an actual mathematician with over a decade of research experience and it was highly skewed towards understanding and derivation instead of memorization. This was highly successful in making for better math students and the class was a statistical anomaly in performance - and since everything shown was proven in class, it was not necessary to memorize anything. Homework was really only to improve mechanical abilities.

I don't see how spending more time on memorizing formulas instead of actually understanding formulas, deriving them, and going above and beyond the high school curriculum would be a deficiency, and you would definitely be penalised in the SAT with such an approach over an objectively worse education where students are exposed to less math and more memorization. There is objectively no value to memorizing what amounts to trivia that you will then immediately forget.

That is to say, I strongly disagree that SAT prep is actually going to be just making you a better student, and we seem to both agree that it is strongly correlated to SAT score, while using such prep is correlated to SES.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#337

What surprises me is how many Asians support these measures. Make no mistake: our ability to progress as we have in America has depended on the fact that objective metrics cannot easily be gamed. The cost of test prep is a minor barrier to entry compared to the cultural knowledge required to write an essay that moves a WASP admissions officer, or the social capital and connections required to get involved in charitab…

If culturally-discriminating WASP admissions officers were the main barrier, one would not expect non-Jewish whites to be the most underrepresented group in the Ivy League. Circa 2019, looking at non-international students only: Ivy League US Ratio Mean SAT score [1] Jewish 17.2% 2.4% 7.16 n/a Asian 19.6% 5.3% 3.71 1216 White (incl. Jewish) 50.3% 61.5% 0.82 1148 Hispanic 11.4% 17.6% 0.65 1043 Black 7.8% 12.7% 0.61 96…

Sure you would. WASPs don’t like Jews and never have. Only the justifications have changed.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#338

Removing SAT harms lower class people and benefits upper class people, so of course that removed it.

The theory was that standardized tests harm lower class people and help upper class people. That is why they removed it [1].

This article demonstrates that the theory was wrong, but the intention was opposite of what you describe.

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/why-us-colleges-are-...

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#339

Kind of a big assumption that admission was fair before. Having test scores to fall back on is more useful as a CYA exercise than anything meaningful. "Nobody ever got fired for hiring McKinsey” indeed.

Nobody thinks admission was completely fair before, but it was without a doubt more fair with objective test scores than without.

The headline says it was easier to fairly choose students with the exams, and I'm calling bullshit on that assumption. It implicitly assumes that selecting for standardized test scores is more fair.

College admission has been unfair for generations. TBH I'm not sure "fairness" is even a good metric. Is it fair that I didn't have to work after school to support my family? No. Is it fair that my parents have advanced degrees and read to me as a young child? No. Is it fair that I got to take the SAT twice, because I wanted a higher math score? No. None of that is fair, and all of it helped me get into highly selective colleges.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

The math part is not so bad, but I definitely would agree that the verbal/written strongly favors students educated in affluent private schools. You just not going to get that vocab prep down in a poor public school with a lot of minorities. The SAT tests in the language of the US white elite.

> The SAT tests in the language of the US white elite.

How do Asians manage to do well on it? And let me guess, you’re specifically talking about the analogy question that refers to a regatta? That question is repeatedly trotted out as evidence of the SAT’s bias but it, or anything similar, hasn’t been found in the test in decades…

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