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Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

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Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#291

Post by MichaelCollins »

thegrimmest wrote: post #209
MichaelCollins wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure that "the state of society" is the primary differentiating factor in the effectiveness of laws, particularly laws relating to fundamental human behaviours like violence or reproduction. I think it is, since there is great cultural variation in the ways humans think about violence and sex. Monogamy or harems; human sacrifice or the abolition of the death penalty. Any combination of these can be "normal"…

And yet, some things are near universally constant amongst large scale agrarian civilizations. For instance the confinement of violent criminals or the institution of marriage. You're right in that there is some variation, but there do actually seem to be some choices in this regard that are more conducive to a stable, prosperous, society. Just like there are many ways to run a company, but only some of them lead to…

> And yet, some things are near universally constant amongst large scale agrarian civilizations. For instance the confinement of violent criminals

Certainly not. Imprisonment for violent crimes is far from being a universal constant of human culture. There have been and are cultures in which violent criminals are only detained so they can be executed. Or beaten and then released. Or simply fined. Or not charged at all. What even counts as violent crime varies considerably even in developed countries today. Legal self-defense in one country may be murder in another.

Similarly, marriage is only culturally universal in a very abstract sense. Who are you allowed to marry? How many consecutive marriages are you allowed to have? Under what conditions can a marriage be broken? Can you be sold for marriage against your will?

> You're right in that there is some variation, but there do actually seem to be some choices in this regard that are more conducive to a stable, prosperous, society. Just like there are many ways to run a company, but only some of them lead to success. Point being that if you live in such a society, "changing things" may lead you off the golden path that brought you where you are. It's true that some change is inevitable, but any operator of any system that prioritizes stability above all is always wary of any unnecessary change.

I agree. My point is that liberals, progressives, conservatives.. pretty much everybody except the most apathetic, seek to make a change to society to turn society in a direction they think will be for the better. Each have different value systems and experiences, and accordingly have different opinions about what's wrong in society and what would constitute society being better. Conservatives frame themselves as apart from this by saying they don't want change, but "not change" is itself a change they want to impose on society to bring society back into line with their values.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#292

Post by humanizersequel »

geraldyo wrote: post #279
bushbaba wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

"that System is designed to keep minorities out"

That is an extraordinary claim to make with such poorly defined terms and lack of evidence.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#293

Post by WalterBright »

bushbaba wrote: post #260
WalterBright wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of test prep is way, way overblown. Besides, the idea that you have to be wealthy to avail yourself of test prep is absurd. I buy books at the thrift store all the time, and there are always test prep books there for a couple dollars. The local public library has them for free. yootoob is loaded with test prep videos. There are no excuses. If you want to prep for the test, 1. read lots of books meant for ad…

Test prep is not overblown. Prior to test-prep I got a 630 on my math section. Post test prep I got an 800. Why? Prior to test prep I was solving the problems as I was taught in calculus. Deriving equations. The test prep re-inforced memorizing key formulas and how to think not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's faster to validate if a given answer is correct. SAT test prep do…

You'll wind up just knowing the formulas from paying attention in math class, and especially from doing all the homework problems and taking all the math classes your high school offers. To be sure, maybe your high school is deficient in teaching math (mine was). For test prep, then you need some extra math instruction, not test prep.

> not about solving the problem but eliminating options and determining when it's faster to validate if a given answer is correct

Those skills are not specific to test taking, they are general problem solving skills. You'll use them all the time in industry.

BTW, I picked up an SAT vocabulary prep book to see what was in it. I knew nearly all the words. That's simply from reading a lot. I kinda doubt that memorizing words from a vocabulary book is going to help. The SAT prep book had "hundreds" of words in it. The typical high school graduate has a vocabulary of 10,000 words, for college graduates it's 30,000 words. Hundreds of words isn't going to make much difference. Besides, memorizing words is not the same as organically learning them from routinely encountering them.

The TV vocabulary is 3,000 words if I recall correctly. That's right, TV is dumbed down. (On the other hand, that means one can learn a foreign language by only learning 3,000 words!)

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#294

Post by atonse »

metalforever wrote: post #239
WalterBright wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any clubs in my high school that charged its members. Not even the Boy Scouts. None of the colleges I applied to asked for my family's tax history or income level, except for on the separate financial aid application.

I can answer this because I was in this position. Parents couldnt afford the gas. They worked long hours to make ends meet and couldn’t take time to drive me to this stuff even if they had the gas money. Finally, there’s just not a lot of ECs available in a lot of poor areas , like the one I came from. I filled that space in the app talking about my hobbies instead because there was no money. Yeah.

Not sure where you went to school but I went to a public school in DC.

Both my immigrant parents worked crazy hours so I spent my evenings playing with friends and in various clubs.

Computer Club, Orchestra (early morning practice), various sports like tennis and soccer.

None of it cost my parents a penny, it was all free. Even school uniforms were free. I know generally in public schools, things are almost always free. If they aren’t, there are pathways to pay for it.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#295

Post by analyst74 »

geraldyo wrote: post #279
bushbaba wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

People are not arguing SAT is 100% fair, but that it's most fair compared to alternatives.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#296

Post by atonse »

metalforever wrote: post #257
WalterBright wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The school clubs met after school, one was there anyway. The Boy Scouts also met within walking distance. The Scouts used to meet at public schools, but the people who hate the Scouts got them kicked out because they had a religious requirement for one of the ranks.

Can you please explain how the child would get home from the after school activity, if it existed? I’m being clear when I am saying there really aren’t any EC options . In poor areas , there’s no money because school funding comes from property tax . Where I went, the funding was so tight they had to fire the foreign language , art teachers and music teachers . If they can’t afford regular instructors , where is the…

Our school was in a better neighborhood but still a part of the historically pretty dysfunctional DC Public Schools system.

Not sure how much was teachers volunteering, but we did have old instruments, old computers, etc.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#297

Post by crackercrews »

melony wrote: post #254
crackercrews wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that lots of professor kids get into the colleges where their parents teach. But is that surprising? They would presumably be much more well-qualified than the average applicant, based on both nature and nurture. Most administrators are not professors, but are former professors. The same rationale would apply to their kids.

University staffs' (that are reasonably high up) kids are always given priority. That's just how it works. The reason is that you don't want the parent to leave or complain.

What's your source for this? What makes you think this is the reason, as opposed to the nature and nurture rationales?

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#298

Post by atonse »

WalterBright wrote: post #272
metalforever wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you please explain how the child would get home from the after school activity, if it existed? I’m being clear when I am saying there really aren’t any EC options . In poor areas , there’s no money because school funding comes from property tax . Where I went, the funding was so tight they had to fire the foreign language , art teachers and music teachers . If they can’t afford regular instructors , where is the…

I walked home from school. I can't recall my parents ever picking me up. The Boy Scouts didn't run on money. A chess club, book club, drama club, dance club, photography club, math club, etc., don't require money. Besides, creating something from nothing is going to look a lot better on an application than following a course that is laid out by instructors and papered with cash.

Yup same here. Public school was walking distance (20 min walk but not a big deal) so I didn’t rely on my parents. We also had a public metrobus route with discounted fare.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#299

Post by erdos4d »

geraldyo wrote: post #279
bushbaba wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

What's the sarcasm? You could argue the SAT is designed for testing skills that can only/primarily be learned within the current school system. And that System is designed to keep minorities out, so I could argue there's a correlation there

The math part is not so bad, but I definitely would agree that the verbal/written strongly favors students educated in affluent private schools. You just not going to get that vocab prep down in a poor public school with a lot of minorities. The SAT tests in the language of the US white elite.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#300

Post by WalterBright »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #284
WalterBright wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have a job, that will look good on an admission form. I certainly listed my job on mine.

With all due respect, college admissions have drastically changed over the past forty to fifty years!

How? And why wouldn't a job look good? A job shows a person is capable of being responsible, independent, and deferred gratification.
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