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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

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Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#211

Post by [deleted] »

Test0129 wrote: post #209
miamibre wrote: post #145

Please note: I am not a lawyer With that said, pretty much everyone in my family, including my SO, are lawyers and I have been around the block a few times when it comes to discussing slander / libel suits in the US. As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case. In the US the bar for slander is very high due to the existence of the…

> As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case. That's not the goal with most of these libel/slander law suits. Consider the most famous one - Billy Mitchell the most infamous professional gamer of all time. The evidence is basically unanimous he cheated but he uses lawsuits to shut down people who can't afford to fight them. I ima…

[deleted]

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#212

Post by alipang »

squidbeak wrote: post #133
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

His win over Carlsen wasn't considered to be superhuman. Neither player played perfectly. In his podcast, Fabiano Caruana (someone capable of judging this) said he felt very strongly that Niemann hadn't cheated in the tournament. His ELO gains are impressive, but not unique. [1] If he is cheating, no sensible hypothesis of how he's doing it has yet been offered. So it seems more probably he's a legitimately talented…

What, the anal beads is not a sensible theory? /s

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#213

Post by jjeaff »

grogers wrote: post #200
rufus_foreman wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case I don't think that's the only reason you bring a slander lawsuit. I think sometimes people do it expecting they will lose, but knowing the defense will be "we have no evidence the things we said were true, but our false statements are technically legal", and making the defendants go on the record with that defense.

IANAL but I think if they knew the statements were false (or with reckless disregard for the truth) then it would be slander. This is the "actual malice" standard. But in this case it seems absurdly unlikely that Niemann could prove this.

Is this guy enough of a public figure to require the actual malice standard? Because for a private citizen, you would only have to prove that the accusations were wrong, assuming the topic is also not considered to be of public concern.

But maybe chess championships and champions are a big enough deal to be considered public.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#216

Post by vintermann »

soganess wrote: post #193
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of muscles you can use to give input.

So you'd rather believe he is a genius bio hci engineer? Which is more likely?

You don't need to be a genius engineer, you need to be a competent stage magician. And competent stage magicians are more common than 2700 Elo chess players, so it's not by itself unreasonable to suspect.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#217

Post by vintermann »

laweijfmvo wrote: post #74
2bitencryption wrote: post #44

Can someone explain something - Assume for a moment Hans did not cheat (aside from the times he admitted to cheating). In the scenario where he did not cheat - how amazing is his performance? I.e. beating Magnus, Elo rating, etc. I know chess.com did an analysis, which I've read, but I'm hoping someone more impartial could explain it. In the scenario where he did not cheat, is he really on a Bobby Fischer-like ascend…

I‘ve been trying to draw parallels to other sports in this regard. Nobody accused Tiger Woods of cheating (at golf) when he redefined the sport. People DID accuse Lance Armstrong, and they were right (although in that case the whole field was cheating). New England Patriots? Kinda cheated. Michael Phelps has never been accused AFAIK. As a non-chess player, I can’t help but wonder if this is just an entire sport refus…

> I can’t help but wonder if this is just an entire sport refusing to accept that someone could come along and achieve this

That's what Niemann wants you to believe, but it's not right. Carlsen is rated about 200 Elo points above Niemann. That makes a win in classical an upset, sure, but far from unprecented, and far from proof that he's a threat to Magnus' dominating position in the chess world the last decade. Weaker players have beaten Magnus, even with black.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#218

Post by iLoveOncall »

mannykannot wrote: post #169
iLoveOncall wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He already did so, in the match that he won against Carlsen. The measures in all those tournaments are extremely stringent.

Clearly some people whose opinions matter do not regard those measures as stringent enough to settle the issue.

Do you have any idea of what is in place to prevent cheating in those competitions? The only possible improvement would be for the players to be naked.

This is just an easy excuse.

"He cheated!" "There are anticheat measures" "They're not good enough"

It's a cycle that can never be solved. The loser can always claim the anticheat measures were "not enough".

You know what. I think Carlsen has cheated in every single one of his games. Prove the contrary.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#219

Post by Rodeoclash »

ajhurliman wrote: post #177
dane-pgp wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chess will be replaced with an acting and subterfuge competition. Which sort of prompts the question: Why isn't there a "World Chess Cheating Championship"? The competitors would be given the chance to either demonstrate a type of cheating, or demonstrate a counter-measure, and then judges would be able to organise rigorous tests that paired the methods off against each other. One sort of test that would be interes…

There actually is, computer-aided humans can beat computers, in fact.

My understanding is that computer aided humans lose vs pure computer opponents. The human is a handicap.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#220

Post by eimrine »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #218
mannykannot wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly some people whose opinions matter do not regard those measures as stringent enough to settle the issue.

Do you have any idea of what is in place to prevent cheating in those competitions? The only possible improvement would be for the players to be naked. This is just an easy excuse. "He cheated!" "There are anticheat measures" "They're not good enough" It's a cycle that can never be solved. The loser can always claim the anticheat measures were "not enough". You know what. I think Carlsen has cheated in every single o…

> The only possible improvement would be for the players to be naked.

Something might be placed inside the organism.

> I think Carlsen has cheated in every single one of his games. Prove the contrary.

That's easy. He streamed a lot of games with the tightest time requirements happening in the discipline, kind of 3 minutes per player plus extra 1 second per move. The speed of that game is so high that there is simply no time for having a conversations with cheating device. Also he always notice some suspicious moves (in not that fast games) which becomes correlating with chess engine.

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