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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

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Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#191

Post by thatguy0900 »

dylan604 wrote: post #182
thatguy0900 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so? If he's cheating, he was never actually caught in person, so probably pretty innovative, and if he's not cheating, then his career is crumbling around him at 19 and he can't possibly innovate around the #1 player and one of the largest chess organizations conspiring against him. (I think he's cheating for the record)

You may think that cheating without getting caught is some sort of innovation, but I think you're really stretching for that one. Maybe the phrase should be updated to "If you can't innovate, litigate. Or cheat" If you were moving yourself to a better place or even the "sport" or whatever you're involved is moved forward because of you getting better, that would be innovation. Trying to win but not putting in the eff…

I don't know, especially on this website. Half of the super innovative high market cap companies everyone laudes on here just have "cheating/ignoring regulations and common decency" as half of the innovation.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#192

Post by moralestapia »

John23832 wrote: post #183
raydiatian wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I need help understanding how they “gave evidence” In any case, I know this won’t be officially resolved in the court of public opinion.

In their report, Chess.com statistically showed why they believed that Hans was cheating on their site. They also shared that he admitted it, and why he said he did it (a higher rating gets more streams). That all they need to show, because that’s all they assert.

>that’s all they assert

Nah, chess.com asserts that he's cheating more than he admitted to. While Carlsen asserts that Hans cheated on OTB games against him. No clear evidence on any of those things.

Also, chess.com is far from an authority here, plus, there's a conflict of interest. They would have to show with some method that a court considers valid (much better than "trust me, bro ;)") that Hans was cheating. Disregarding the underlying truth, something like that is quite difficult to prove.

Making all the right moves and "you can't be that good" is not evidence of cheating, they have to prove that there was an artifact/device/technique being used by Hans to win. Good luck with that.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#193

Post by soganess »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #166
treis wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still has to feed the computer moves

There are plenty of muscles you can use to give input.

So you'd rather believe he is a genius bio hci engineer? Which is more likely?

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#194

Post by cowvin »

blep_ wrote: post #180
jjk166 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golf's a game of precision motor control, while insanely long drives might be evidence of cheating, it's hard to imagine a way to make yourself more accurate besides skill, at least without it being obvious on live television. Biking obviously involves a lot of different things but it's much easier to see how doping is going to help. Football has so many facets that it's kind of surprising there aren't more cheating…

Legitimate curiosity from a non-golf person: how would one cheat at golf?

Mostly things like illegal equipment (besides blatantly breaking rules).

https://golfguidebook.com/best-illegal-golf-clubs/

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#195

Post by raydiatian »

moralestapia wrote: post #192
John23832 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their report, Chess.com statistically showed why they believed that Hans was cheating on their site. They also shared that he admitted it, and why he said he did it (a higher rating gets more streams). That all they need to show, because that’s all they assert.

>that’s all they assert Nah, chess.com asserts that he's cheating more than he admitted to. While Carlsen asserts that Hans cheated on OTB games against him. No clear evidence on any of those things. Also, chess.com is far from an authority here, plus, there's a conflict of interest. They would have to show with some method that a court considers valid (much better than "trust me, bro ;)") that Hans was cheating. Dis…

Invariably, I suspect that this trial will not prove anything. While I’m frustrated at the realization that Chess.com has a conflict of interest, I think halting Niemann’s career without proof of OTB cheating is absolutely foolish from the Carlsen camp. A far better solution is to tell Niemann he has been flagged, and his games will be watched for an extended time period with added scrutiny, he’ll need to explain why he made the moves accurately, etc etc. if after an extended period up against difficult opponents he proves he can’t function with the same fervor as he had against Carlsen, “let that speak for itself” as everybody seems to want to say wrt this case.

I don’t know if Carlsen is personally liable, but man, it seems pretty fucking foolish on his part to have said what he said.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#196

Post by SirSourdough »

blep_ wrote: post #180
jjk166 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Golf's a game of precision motor control, while insanely long drives might be evidence of cheating, it's hard to imagine a way to make yourself more accurate besides skill, at least without it being obvious on live television. Biking obviously involves a lot of different things but it's much easier to see how doping is going to help. Football has so many facets that it's kind of surprising there aren't more cheating…

Legitimate curiosity from a non-golf person: how would one cheat at golf?

“Improving your lie” is a common way, meaning altering the environment around the player, swing path, ball, or shot path in a way that yields some advantage.

This would include things like breaking off a twig in your way, removing leaves or grass around the ball, etc.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#197

Post by [deleted] »

mannykannot wrote: post #169
iLoveOncall wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He already did so, in the match that he won against Carlsen. The measures in all those tournaments are extremely stringent.

Clearly some people whose opinions matter do not regard those measures as stringent enough to settle the issue.

[deleted]

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#198

Post by aoeusnth1 »

MichaelCollins wrote: post #66
mellosouls wrote: post #22

I don't know what the right way for him to fight back is, but this is a teenager who's made a few mistakes and in disproportionate response has been steamrolled by some of the biggest forces in chess - which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some - so I'm glad he has found an avenue for redress, however it pans out. He's owed a massive apology by them.

If somebody is too young to be accountable for cheating, then they're too young to be trusted in top level competitions in the first place.

I agree. kids shouldn’t play in low security events like Titled Tuesday or other online tournaments with no arbiter. Kids don’t have the self control to never open up another tab and check some moves, and we shouldn’t be surprised when it happens.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#199

Post by John23832 »

moralestapia wrote: post #192
John23832 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In their report, Chess.com statistically showed why they believed that Hans was cheating on their site. They also shared that he admitted it, and why he said he did it (a higher rating gets more streams). That all they need to show, because that’s all they assert.

>that’s all they assert Nah, chess.com asserts that he's cheating more than he admitted to. While Carlsen asserts that Hans cheated on OTB games against him. No clear evidence on any of those things. Also, chess.com is far from an authority here, plus, there's a conflict of interest. They would have to show with some method that a court considers valid (much better than "trust me, bro ;)") that Hans was cheating. Dis…

Chess.com is the authority on the data gathered on their site… which is their basis of kicking him off of their site. They’ve done nothing else.

They really don’t have to prove anything to remove him from their site. Him admitting to it, and their interpretation of the stats is icing on the cake.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#200

Post by grogers »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #178
miamibre wrote: post #145

Please note: I am not a lawyer With that said, pretty much everyone in my family, including my SO, are lawyers and I have been around the block a few times when it comes to discussing slander / libel suits in the US. As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case. In the US the bar for slander is very high due to the existence of the…

>> I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case I don't think that's the only reason you bring a slander lawsuit. I think sometimes people do it expecting they will lose, but knowing the defense will be "we have no evidence the things we said were true, but our false statements are technically legal", and making the defendants go on the record with that defense.

IANAL but I think if they knew the statements were false (or with reckless disregard for the truth) then it would be slander. This is the "actual malice" standard. But in this case it seems absurdly unlikely that Niemann could prove this.
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