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Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

courtlistener.com

141–150 of 263 posts

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you previously still had respect for Hans, does that mean you considered it possible he is innocent of these specific cheating accusations? Supposing for the sake of argument that he really didn't cheat, isn't he well within his right to sue those defaming him? Personally I don't know; I see smoke but no fire and I'm not qualified to judge the meaning of that smoke. Hans' admitted history of cheating before online…

He has the option to sue, but the way to gain respect is to demonstrate his ability in an environment that controls for any means of cheating posited by those who suspect him of doing so.

He already did so, in the match that he won against Carlsen. The measures in all those tournaments are extremely stringent.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If he’s innocent, this seems like a reasonable lawsuit.

I mean we know he cheated before, he's said as much. Now, I don't know if he actually cheated in the match with Carlsen, but Carlsen had every reason to believe the man would and did. Which would make libel and slander pretty untenable by my limited understanding.

> but Carlsen had every reason to believe the man would and did.

Carlsen also had the perfect excuse for his bad performance by suggesting the other player cheated.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>proving he cheated [...] Sorry I missed the part where there was a proof. Could you pinpoint to it?

https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report

We present evidence in this report that Hans likely cheated online much more than his public statements suggest. However, while Hans has had a record-setting and remarkable rise in rating and strength, in our view there is a lack of concrete statistical evidence that he cheated in his game with Magnus or in any other over-the-board (“OTB”)—i.e., in-person—games. We are presenting our findings here and will cooperate with FIDE on any further investigation.

...

Despite the public speculation on these questions, in our view, there is no direct evidence that proves Hans cheated at the September 4, 2022 game with Magnus, or proves that he has cheated in other OTB games in the past.

Uh oh ... that doesn't look good for the defendants.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much not legal advice here, but… believing that you’re telling the truth doesn’t automatically make it not slander.

In the US, it depends on whether Hans is a public figure. If he is, generally the standard is you have to know your statements are false.

Sure, the actual malice standard. Seems like a tough sell on these facts, but might as well argue it and see what sticks.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#145
Please note: I am not a lawyer

With that said, pretty much everyone in my family, including my SO, are lawyers and I have been around the block a few times when it comes to discussing slander / libel suits in the US.

As an independent 3rd party with no interest in the world of Chess, I don't see how Niemann expects to win any damages in this case.

In the US the bar for slander is very high due to the existence of the first amendment and trying to protect it, you will basically have to prove malicious intent and that the offending party knew they were lying. Other countries like the UK have a much lower bar which is why it's a bigger deal there.

Unless I am missing some clear piece of evidence no one made a bad faith comment (and i need to stress you need to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt)

Magnus felt there was foul play because he knew of Nieman's history of cheating which was public knowledge in the chess world, same thing with his comments regarding the coach

Chess.com simply made available data that is rightfully theirs and stated that his rise has been exceptional.

Hikaru simply commented on the situation like a million other youtubers / twitch streamers and influencers, he just happens to be an expert in the field so he made his opinion using his domain knowledge and the fact that Niemann had been previously accused of cheating.

Again, unless i am missing some clear piece of evidence no one acted maliciously or twisted the truth to purposely cause harm, only gave their opinion using the information they had available.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.

I'm a huge Hans fan. (F him for cheating, but setting that aside.) His play is objectively insane . Either he's somehow been cheating this whole time via shoefish, or he's the real deal. GothamChess has had excellent coverage of his games. Like seriously, look at this one: https://youtu.be/ainUWFboMLs?t=1490 Hans threw a masterful knockout punch at the end, one which his opponent completely overlooked, and was solely…

> His play is objectively insane

But he doesn't do himself any favors with comments like "the chess speaks for itself", or offering what according to other GMs is a lackluster analysis of those astounding moves.

Whether it's immaturity or cheating remains to be seen.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#148
post #95

This is not a good thing for chess that Hans Niemann is filing a lawsuit against world champion Magnus Carlsen and others. The lawsuit is a distraction from the game of chess and takes away from the enjoyment that fans of the game get from watching the top players compete.

Finding out that there is alot of cheating among gms, as the chess.com report seems to indicate, might be a bigger distraction from the game

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#149
Niemann should be treated like the equivalent of a major league athlete, where FIDE as chess's governing body should have the final say as to whether Hans is allowed to compete at major tournaments instead of corporate sponsor Chess.com. The accusations of him cheating at over-the-board play have been dubious at best, and the allegations of doing so during online play are inconclusive with no smoking gun to indicate outside help. Chess.com's report[0] focused on analyzing his online games and de-emphasized his strong play in over-the-board games, and also says their report shouldn't be used as a reason for him not to play at in-person tournaments; yet do the doublespeak of banning him from the 2022 Global Championship!

While it is true that even a single small outside hint can change the outcome of a game, Niemann and the entire chess community have benefitted from practicing against increasingly stronger computer engines where play styles have adjusted to this new era as well in addition to self-funding his tuition at a private school. Many of these tournaments over the past 3 years have only been played online, and have easier access to both stronger real and virtual opponents so having a faster increase in his ELO rating than anyone previously is not outside the realm of possibility.

Defamation, while likely will be settled for much less than the stated amount, on this is case is very justified as tournaments are invite-only rather than climbing a tournament ladder by winning local/regional games. Barring an athlete based on unsubstantiated political decisions and effectively trying to destroy Niemann's livelihood should be seen as highly unethical action by Chess.com and Carlsen.

[0] https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#150
post #8
post #7

Well he's gotta make money somehow.

Just another example of when you can't innovate, litigate

How so? If he's cheating, he was never actually caught in person, so probably pretty innovative, and if he's not cheating, then his career is crumbling around him at 19 and he can't possibly innovate around the #1 player and one of the largest chess organizations conspiring against him. (I think he's cheating for the record)
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