Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura • Hacker News Board

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#161

Post by StanislavPetrov » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 10:59 PM UTC

faeriechangling wrote: post #79

Vrondi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One might even think that his own documented and admitted history of cheating is what has damaged him. Who wants to play against a cheater? Has he suddenly come down with a case of honor? How can he prove that? He has already destroyed his own reputation. Why should anyone want to play him? He is whining because he is reaping what he has sown himself.

I believe his past and admitted history of cheating did damage him, but that does not mean these recent allegations of cheating have not additionally damaged him. The allegations also weren't "Why - this man has admitted to cheated in the past - therefore we shouldn't trust him in the future". In the case of chess.com, they made specific and explicit allegations of cheating across a number of RECENT games. Magnus acc…

>Just because you have a shady past doesn't mean you can't sue for slander/libel and win, you see shady journalists who lie all the time win slander/libel cases all the time.

It is actually very rare for anyone to win a slander/libel case, shady journalist or otherwise. The salient issue here isn't his, "shady past", it's the specific behavior he was engaged in. Specifically, he has a documented history as a cheater. If you alleged that he was having sex with farm animals, which is unrelated to his history of cheating, he would have a much easier time proving tangible harm. He is going to have to prove that the recent damage to his reputation was both unfounded and resulted directly from the new allegations of his cheating, and not simply the fact that Carlson and Chess.com publicized his past, documented history of cheating. In short, if you refuse to race against Lance Armstrong because you say he is blood-doping, he's going to have a very difficult time suing for for slander, even if he is not currently engaged in that behavior.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#162

Post by John23832 » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:00 PM UTC

moralestapia wrote: post #143

John23832 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.chess.com/blog/CHESScom/hans-niemann-report

We present evidence in this report that Hans likely cheated online much more than his public statements suggest. However, while Hans has had a record-setting and remarkable rise in rating and strength, in our view there is a lack of concrete statistical evidence that he cheated in his game with Magnus or in any other over-the-board (“OTB”)—i.e., in-person—games. We are presenting our findings here and will cooperate…

It doesn't matter. Nobody outright said that Hans cheated in the match (except for Hikaru, but that's commentary on youtube. He has the right to say that.)

There's no basis to sue Chess.com. Their report is their stance. They sponsor online games and run their own platform, so they can remove Hans if they please. Magnus specifically didn't call Hans a cheater, he just said that he believes that he has cheated more that Hans admitted. Libel starts at "you are" not "I believe".

There was a lot of pilling-on on the internet, but that's the nature of the internet. You can't sue the internet.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#163

Post by Kranar » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:02 PM UTC

gretch wrote: post #160

Kranar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the fact that damages can change (and increase) over the course of a trial is not extremely exceptional at all, in fact it's the norm. The vast majority of civil suits are for unspecified claims. I only mentioned McDonald's and Alex Jones because most people would be familiar with them, not because they are exceptional. OJ Simpson's wrongful death suit is another example where the damages significantly exceeded w…

I am not a lawyer. I've worked with multiple lawyers on multiple suits and this is literally how they advised me. I've been on the other side of the table where I received legal letters asking to repair harms, and this is a similar story. I'm telling stories about my life experiences. If you choose not to believe them, whatever I don't care. And obviously you should not take the advise of me, an internet stranger, ov…

When discussing legal matters, please avoid making statements like this:

"What I gave is pragmatic advise for a normal person in general situations."

Avoid purporting to give people legal advice if you are not a subject matter expert.

If you want to discuss your own personal experiences, by all means you're welcome to do so and there's nothing wrong with that. In that case avoid making factual or categorical claims that could mislead people and certainly don't do so with the notion that you're giving people advice on the matter.

When you say something can never happen that's a factual legal claim that is false when in fact it happens all the time. Perhaps in your specific circumstances that was the correct course of action, but that does not mean that this is a legal principle that can be generalized and from which you can advise others on.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#164

Post by planetsprite » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:03 PM UTC

vecter wrote: post #93

planetsprite wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His rate of improvement, assuming no cheating since his ban in 2020, is a faster ascendance than any other player in history, including Bobby Fischer. So yes, assuming he suddenly quit cheating cold turkey, his performance would indicate he is a once in a generation talent and could easily become the best in the world, according to the Chess.com report.

This is just not true. Check out the analysis here [0], for example. His rating improvement has been steep but he's also played a very large number of games, so his rating gain per game as opposed to per unit of time is not so crazy. Also, no one seriously expects Hans to be a world championship contender. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/x9bgtx/how_quickly_d...

Every chess player plays a lot of games, Hans' have just been more public/documented ones. You really don't think that every 2400+ player is treating chess like a full time job, and Hans just simply is just outworking them?

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#165

Post by thatguy0900 » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:11 PM UTC

faeriechangling wrote: post #112

nilespotter wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which could have had quite terrible mental health consequences for some God people are so fragile these days.

Yeah totally these fragile snowflakes crying "boohoo I lost my career that I had been working on for my entire life and people harass me whenever I appear in public and call me a sham :..(" All you need to maintain your mental health is a good bottle of whisky and a stiff upper lip!

Except I hope they lose their career when they admittedly have cheated in money matches?... Like we should just let them continue and cheat because they feel bad about being called out? Hes not even apologetic, he has continued to lie throughout this whole ordeal about the scope of his cheating. We only know the scope because he kept insisting it was only a few incidents until chess.com showed him admitting otherwise to them. You can say he cheated as a teen and should be forgiven, but he's still trying to lie as much as he can until forced to otherwise. At what point does he have responsibility for his own actions?

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#166

Post by FartyMcFarter » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:11 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #157

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said there has to be a co-conspirator? He could have a small computer inside him, if you really want to believe he's cheating. To be clear, I'm not saying I believe this.

Still has to feed the computer moves

There are plenty of muscles you can use to give input.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#167

Post by moralestapia » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:14 PM UTC

John23832 wrote: post #162

moralestapia wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We present evidence in this report that Hans likely cheated online much more than his public statements suggest. However, while Hans has had a record-setting and remarkable rise in rating and strength, in our view there is a lack of concrete statistical evidence that he cheated in his game with Magnus or in any other over-the-board (“OTB”)—i.e., in-person—games. We are presenting our findings here and will cooperate…

It doesn't matter. Nobody outright said that Hans cheated in the match (except for Hikaru, but that's commentary on youtube. He has the right to say that.) There's no basis to sue Chess.com. Their report is their stance. They sponsor online games and run their own platform, so they can remove Hans if they please. Magnus specifically didn't call Hans a cheater, he just said that he believes that he has cheated more th…

>Libel starts at "you are" not "I believe".

Nah, libel triggers as soon as there's intent. And, surprise, intent can be "presumed".

"I believe " qualifies as libel, if untrue and it has a defamatory effect. The defamatory effect implies the intent.

Honestly, if no definitive proof comes out of Hans cheating, Carlsen/chess.com are in trouble.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#168

Post by gretch » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:17 PM UTC

Kranar wrote: post #163

gretch wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not a lawyer. I've worked with multiple lawyers on multiple suits and this is literally how they advised me. I've been on the other side of the table where I received legal letters asking to repair harms, and this is a similar story. I'm telling stories about my life experiences. If you choose not to believe them, whatever I don't care. And obviously you should not take the advise of me, an internet stranger, ov…

When discussing legal matters, please avoid making statements like this: "What I gave is pragmatic advise for a normal person in general situations." Avoid purporting to give people legal advice if you are not a subject matter expert. If you want to discuss your own personal experiences, by all means you're welcome to do so and there's nothing wrong with that. In that case avoid making factual or categorical claims t…

You're basically just stating a set of arbitrary life principles and then saying everyone should live by them.

I thought my comment was 1) definitely ethical based on the fact the first sentence stated I'm not a lawyer, then later stating that you should always take the advise of your personal lawyer and 2) added value to ppl who didn't have any legal experience at all on the topic.

You think I was using the word "never" literally? Okay well how about you just said "in fact it happens all the time". Okay so it happens 100% of the time right? Does it even happen 50% of the time? You're a hypocrite for criticizing the use of conversational shortcuts and then using them yourself.

You've failed to convince me of anything, and I'm going to keep living my life and making comments the way I was.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#169

Post by mannykannot » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:18 PM UTC

iLoveOncall wrote: post #141

mannykannot wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has the option to sue, but the way to gain respect is to demonstrate his ability in an environment that controls for any means of cheating posited by those who suspect him of doing so.

He already did so, in the match that he won against Carlsen. The measures in all those tournaments are extremely stringent.

Clearly some people whose opinions matter do not regard those measures as stringent enough to settle the issue.

Re: Hans Niemann Suing Magnus Carlsen, Chess.com, and Hikaru Nakamura

#170

Post by kregasaurusrex » Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 11:28 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #154

kregasaurusrex wrote: post #149

Niemann should be treated like the equivalent of a major league athlete, where FIDE as chess's governing body should have the final say as to whether Hans is allowed to compete at major tournaments instead of corporate sponsor Chess.com. The accusations of him cheating at over-the-board play have been dubious at best, and the allegations of doing so during online play are inconclusive with no smoking gun to indicate…

Chess.com's position is that FIDE should make its own rulings. But unlike the NFL, there is no "other" NFL that makes any serious money; in chess this is different. The 2022 Global Championship is a tournament organized by Chess.com.

I was under the impression that the 2022 Global Championship was an in-person event sponsored by chess.com but instead is fully online. Having read through more of the report with Niemann's interactions with the CEO regarding his previous online cheating, admission of prior cheating & promise to "never ever do it again", and then making statistically improbable moves (yet denies assistance) during online play does raise some suspicion.

While I might personally disagree with the company's decision and think it's a bad image to deny the best players from participating, FIDE doesn't have the same level of oversight over players/sponsors like say the PGA does over its relationships. There is a FIDE Code of Ethics[0] that mentions a ban if an advisory panel finds credible evidence of cheating, where I still believe that centipawn loss and the other metrics published in the aforementioned report don't clear the bar of unconditionally cheating and a ban shouldn't be enforced.

[0] https://handbook.fide.com/files/handbook/EthicsAndDisciplina...