Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#51

Post by anonporridge » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:38 PM UTC

preya2k wrote: post #37

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

I agree with your sentiment, but by no means does nuclear power "have no carbon footprint". It's still a very carbon-friendly technology, but it's definitely not carbon free. (See: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-cycle_greenhouse_gas_em... )

True, and yet solar photovoltaics has almost 4x the carbon footprint of nuclear fission per unit energy produced, and wind has approximately the same as nuclear.

So, for the context of this conversation where Germany is prefering solar and wind to nuclear, and worse, turning to coal in place of natural gas, nuclear is effectively carbon free.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#52

Post by rossdavidh » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:39 PM UTC

OrangeMonkey wrote: post #4

Good. Germany was facing a cold winter, without energy for heating, and the potential for rolling blackouts. With this change, it does not eliminate the threat but makes it less likely. Who in their right mind would decom any type of energy that could help stave off pain for their citizenship - especially one that has no carbon footprint.

Well, I definitely agree with the decision, but at one point there were some valid things to consider:

1) they had been not doing normal routine maintenance that wasn't going to be needed if they were shutting down, and figuring out what all needs to be done to change gears does take some time (and careful thought)

2) they were at one time buying their fuel for nuclear plants from Russia

Now I believe both of these points have been addressed, and I'm glad of it, but it was not totally unreasonable to raise them and not immediately change course.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#53

Post by bamboozled » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:40 PM UTC

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #20

maliker wrote: post #18

In case anyone was curious, Germany used to get 25% of its generation from nuclear (now more like 10%), and they had as many as 17 nuclear reactors as of 2010. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

Good thing they exported 15% of their domestic energy production to the friendly state of Russia - in the form of natural gas imports ($20B per year). What could possibly go wrong?

It was the eco-friendly choice /s

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#54

Post by namuol » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

State-sponsored nuclear fear-mongering is likely to accelerate dramatically online in the coming years. Will it be the right that goes anti-nuclear this time? Hopefully not.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#55

Post by Faaak » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #42

maliker wrote: post #18

In case anyone was curious, Germany used to get 25% of its generation from nuclear (now more like 10%), and they had as many as 17 nuclear reactors as of 2010. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

And all of it was replaced by renewables: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutschla...

Would've been better to decrease coal though. Coal provokes more deaths per kWh than nuclear

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#56

Post by sveme » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #48

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in their right mind Activist politicians who value their cause more than the well being of their citizens.

Don't forget the corrupt politicians who've been bribed with a cushy job.

Any specifics you would like to mention?

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#57

Post by maliker » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #42

maliker wrote: post #18

In case anyone was curious, Germany used to get 25% of its generation from nuclear (now more like 10%), and they had as many as 17 nuclear reactors as of 2010. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Germany

And all of it was replaced by renewables: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Energiemix_Deutschla...

True. Some even argue that Germany's renewable build-out was so large that it significantly lowered renewable costs worldwide.

But if Russian gas was as expensive and unreliable 15 years ago as it is now, I suspect they would have kept the nukes.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#58

Post by jansan » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

legulere wrote: post #41

_dain_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

You can't switch 40 million heating systems overnight, though it's picking up steam ( https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/ ).

Simply install an air conditioner and you will have very efficient room heating (no hot water, though). They cost about 1500€ and are really easy to install. I know in Bulgaria many households have switched from oil heating to air conditioners.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#59

Post by paulmd » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

MichaelCollins wrote: post #29

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who in their right mind Activist politicians who value their cause more than the well being of their citizens.

I don't think this is fair. Although I think some among the anti-nuclear movement may have had subversive intent, most of the people who ended up aligning with that movement did have good intentions. They were reasoning that in the long term, nuclear power would bring great misery to humanity. Long term thinking is good, right? If you believe in the eventual probability of those doomsday scenarios, and you value the…

It also downplays the fossil fuel industry's responsibility for anti-nuclear advocacy. Like gosh it's not the literal billions of dollars this industry spends lobbying congress and subsidizing pro-fossil-fuel perspectives in media and think-tanks, it's the healing-crystals wacko's fault!

Much like recycling or jaywalking, it's a way for an industry to diffuse and downplay their own advocacy and push the fault onto the public.

Like yeah, it would be better if Greenpeace supported nuclear... but they're not the ones sitting in senator's offices getting bills passed subsidizing the fossil-fuel industry. Even the "climate change" bill had to throw almost 10% of its spending to fossil-fuel subsidies.

Re: Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants

#60

Post by ErikCorry » Mon, Oct 17, 2022, 7:46 PM UTC

napier wrote: post #47

jansan wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.

Fortunately it's possible to use the not yet mothballed nuke plants to split H20 and inject the resulting hydrogen into the natural gas supply for use in heating systems and industrial processes. Blend specifics matter, but the necessaries are well studied and adequately well understood https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hyblend-opportunities-... .

Good luck getting that up and running at scale before the end of the winter.