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Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

penntoday.upenn.edu

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Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#81

Post by culi »

NoPicklez wrote: post #49
Waterluvian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve flirted with conspiracy-like thoughts on the dental industry and how they might be “confidently wrong” about things the way the rest of the medical industry famously has been on numerous topics over the centuries. I wondered (with absolutely no basis in fact) things like, “maybe the calcified tartar forms a barrier?”

I actually had a dentist tell me this recently after a clean. That the only "good" thing about calcified tartar is that is does form a barrier. But that we should prevent it accumulating in the first place and causing tooth damage.

This sounds similar to how not all biofilms are cariogenic and can actually play a lot of beneficial roles. We have a lot of evidence[0] that in the past we had a much more commensal microbiome but the shift to a more cariogenic one was actually rather recent. I feel like it's very likely that our oral microbiomes simply haven't had enough time to adapt to the massive shift in modern lifestyles and diet but used to play a mostly beneficial role in our health, much like our gut microbiome did. I mean just look at Google Pics of the teeth of wild monkeys and apes. Pearly whites! No dentist needed

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3996550/

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#82

Post by culi »

colordrops wrote: post #66
Waterluvian wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve flirted with conspiracy-like thoughts on the dental industry and how they might be “confidently wrong” about things the way the rest of the medical industry famously has been on numerous topics over the centuries. I wondered (with absolutely no basis in fact) things like, “maybe the calcified tartar forms a barrier?”

I'm pretty convinced that fluoride is not needed in water or toothpaste. My family of four uses reverse osmosis to remove fluoride from tap, and have used fluoride-free toothpaste for the last 10 years. We all have impeccable dental health despite regular sugar in our diets, but we do practice strict flossing and brushing.

There's actually a lot of evidence that you're right. But only in places where flouride toothpaste use is high. It seems it mostly makes a difference in areas where use of flouride toothpaste isn't widespread. In areas where it is, the risk of dental flourosis (though a relatively small risk) seems to outweigh the potential benefits

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#83

Post by alvarezbjm-hn »

rongopo wrote: post #72
bmau5 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So glad to hear it! These microbial communities play a critical role in our health, so we should feed them accordingly. We're trying to help educate on the same behavior for the oral microbiome. There's a lot of focus on what not to eat (sugar, etc.), but not on what we can eat to improve our oral health. We wrote an article on it here [1]. [1] https://www.bristlehealth.com/post/improve-your-oral-microbi...

I found your article well intentioned and organised but frustrating, because it contains not enough examples for the non expert public it addresses. E.g. what are examples of "sticky and starchy foods"?

Potatoes, tapioca, rice, beans...

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#84

Post by culi »

alvarezbjm-hn wrote: post #79
culi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a very interesting field of inquiry into oral microbiota is a broad evolutionary approach. There was a study published in Nature Genetics[0] showing big changes in oral microbiota corresponding with Neolithic and Industrial dietary change. Modern oral microbiota are markedly less diverse than historic populations and the, much more developed, study of the gut microbiome shows us that very microbial diversity…

>> There was a study published in Nature Genetics[0] showing big changes in oral microbiota corresponding with Neolithic and Industrial dietary change. A different diet leads to a different microbiome. I think mammals' teeth last long enough for a natural life. Of course we want a longer and better life. For instance, all my dogs by age 13 yo have lost half their teeth to rot. We are terrible owners who don't take ca…

> long enough for a natural life

What does this mean though? Ancient lifespans were actually quite close to modern American lifespans. They likely had higher childbirth mortalities so the average may have been low but the modal lifespan was around 70 years[0] which is right around in line with the modern American. Lifespans were significantly shorter in medieval Europe but that was probably the lowest it's ever gotten and that was a relatively short period in human (or at least Western) history. Yet we still find fossil evidence that early hominins and early humans generally had great dental health.[1] Even the Romans, peasant and nobility included, did.[2]

[0] https://theconversation.com/hunter-gatherers-live-nearly-as-...

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/02/24/1726888...

[2] https://www.docseducation.com/blog/ancient-romans-had-health...

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#85

Post by giardini »

Waterluvian wrote: post #36

Anecdotally, I’m having one hell of a time with my 3yo and 5yo’s teeth. No juice. No soda. No bad snacks. Lots of dentist recommended foods and snacks. Full brushing and flossing regimen. Fluoride. Dentist applied special fluoride treatments. Trust me when I say we’re doing everything right. And yet they’re 3 and 5 and have had so many cavities. I asked my dad about it and he said my brothers and I had, frankly, poor…

Vitamin K? Do they eat their greens?

Natural sources of K include kale, collard greens, spinach, turnip greens, brussels sprouts, broccoli, asparagus, lettuce, sauerkraut, soybeans,edamame, pickles, pumpkin, pine nuts and blueberries.

When young I willingly ate the last two on the list if they were available. Only the command "Eat your vegetables!" at dinner made me partake otherwise.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#86

Post by alvarezbjm-hn »

I am here to remind everyone that the single most important oral hygiene measure is to brush your teeth after each meal. That includes not eating anything between meals.

Then comes using toothpaste.

Then comes visiting your dentist regularly.

Them comes everything else, that includes fluorine..

If you aren't brushing your teeth when needed, the rest is almost wasted.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#87

Post by upsidesinclude »

alvarezbjm-hn wrote: post #79
culi wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a very interesting field of inquiry into oral microbiota is a broad evolutionary approach. There was a study published in Nature Genetics[0] showing big changes in oral microbiota corresponding with Neolithic and Industrial dietary change. Modern oral microbiota are markedly less diverse than historic populations and the, much more developed, study of the gut microbiome shows us that very microbial diversity…

>> There was a study published in Nature Genetics[0] showing big changes in oral microbiota corresponding with Neolithic and Industrial dietary change. A different diet leads to a different microbiome. I think mammals' teeth last long enough for a natural life. Of course we want a longer and better life. For instance, all my dogs by age 13 yo have lost half their teeth to rot. We are terrible owners who don't take ca…

Do you feed your dogs kibble?

It is not a natural diet.

Horses likewise are typically eating a very unnatural diet, typically hay.

These are both perfect examples of a analogous diet to modern human diet. The difference being that they are animals and have no ability to correct for poor dietary "choices" with proper maintenance.

I agree, however, with your self assessment.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#88

Post by forgotmypw17 »

culi wrote: post #84
alvarezbjm-hn wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> There was a study published in Nature Genetics[0] showing big changes in oral microbiota corresponding with Neolithic and Industrial dietary change. A different diet leads to a different microbiome. I think mammals' teeth last long enough for a natural life. Of course we want a longer and better life. For instance, all my dogs by age 13 yo have lost half their teeth to rot. We are terrible owners who don't take ca…

> long enough for a natural life What does this mean though? Ancient lifespans were actually quite close to modern American lifespans. They likely had higher childbirth mortalities so the average may have been low but the modal lifespan was around 70 years[0] which is right around in line with the modern American. Lifespans were significantly shorter in medieval Europe but that was probably the lowest it's ever gotte…

I think that we're going to discover that "scorched earth" techniques which indiscriminately decimate bacterial populations do more to perpetuate the problem than to fix it.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#89

Post by basicplus2 »

clumsysmurf wrote: post #64
bmau5 wrote: post #29

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like in…

What do you think of mouth washes that contains Cetylpyridinium Chloride (CPC)? I was reading they may help inactivate SARS-Cov-2 in saliva. I wonder though about (1) killing everything in the mouth or (2) providing oral probiotics (I take one from Life Extension). "Cetylpyridinium chloride (CPC), a quaternary ammonium compound, which is present in mouthwash, is effective against bacteria, fungi, and enveloped viruse…

Never use toothpaste that contains triclosan as it wipes out your gut bacteria if you swallow any and nobody can prevent swallowing any.

Re: Microbes that cause cavities can form superorganisms able to ‘crawl’

#90

Post by forgotmypw17 »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #76
bmau5 wrote: post #29

The evolutionary adaptations oral bacteria have developed to coexist are fascinating. Another example is the known gum disease-causing species, P. gingivalis, can suppress our adaptive immunity [1]. This finding underscores the importance of taking preventative approaches to prevent attachment of biofilm producers (and why daily hygiene is so important), and finding more approaches to biofilm destabilization, like in…

1. I heard that oral health either predicts or is a causal effect in dementia and Alzheimer’s. What’s the mechanism? 2. Should we be having micro biome implants? And more ridiculously, but not really, should we have “celebrity micro biome” products?

I think a good beginning would be figuring out how to help balance the microbiome rather than destroying it routinely.
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