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Quiet Quitting

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Re: Quiet Quitting

#131

Post by phpisthebest »

shadowgovt wrote: post #32
jenny91 wrote: post #13

There has been an erosion and change in the nature of the employee-employer relationship. Back in the day that the author initially started working, the nature of the relationship was probably much more balanced: the employee got a decent wage, was trusted to fulfil their duties with reasonable concessions and freedom (sometimes possibly doing overtime if necessary, but also being able to leave early on days when the…

In general, the relationship between employer and employee has never been balanced. One thing that induced balance in the middle of the 20th century was the power of unions in the middle of high-demand industries; after World War II, manufacturing and transportation were massively valuable to rebuild tracts of the world bombed to bedrock, and this put bargaining power in the hands of labor because labor in e.g. heavy…

You have massively over estimated the power of Unions, and completely overlooked what I believe is the real reason for the shift. The institutional investor.

401K's, Pension funds, and other funds of funds that since WWII have pushed the business cycle from being a 5 year + picture to being a Quarterly Earnings report

That more than anything has had the biggest impact on what the parent comment is talking about

Re: Quiet Quitting

#132

Post by ryandrake »

adalacelove wrote: post #113
itake wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know people that try to extract the maximum amount of value from their job with the least amount of effort. This typically entails taking extended mental health leave. They get 6-24 months of 0-100% base pay, healthcare, pto, and rsu vests while providing negative value to the organization. I feel like these "take advantage of the system people" are partially the cause of stricter monitoring and leeway.

> I feel like these "take advantage of the system people" are partially the cause of stricter monitoring and leeway. But these people are so obviously detected it makes no sense. They are not even trying to hide. They could be the cause of stricter legislation, not monitoring. I think everyone has a good measure about the value of the people they are directly in contact: direct coworkers, bosses and subordinates. You…

> But these people are so obviously detected it makes no sense. They are not even trying to hide.

Why would they try to hide? If their employment agreement or their company's benefits clearly spell out a way to get 6-24 months of leave, how is it wrong to simply choose to do what's spelled out? How did "making use of benefits that are clearly written out and allowed" turn into "taking advantage of the system"?

I take advantage of 100% my company's 401(k) match. Am I taking advantage of the system? How about someone who takes their full maternity leave? Should too many people who do so be a cause of stricter legislation?

Re: Quiet Quitting

#133

Post by zac23or »

I worked a lot on my first job. I thought this company was my company, and I tried to help a lot, failing in every attempt. Boy... it was very painful.

After 6 years without a raise, I went to another company. After my departure, 4 people are hired to do my work. And six years later I went back to the first one, with a 700% increase in salary. What I've learned over the years is that with an external proposal, you get a raise 99% of the time. And that your effort is basically irrelevant. Politics and social capital are much, much more relevant. If your competitor is the owner's son, friend of the boss, you will lose.

In the end, with some social capital you can't work in practice and you'll never get fired. Quiet quiting is for people without social capital.

If, like me, you have zero social capital, my recomendation is to be very professional: I work 8 hours and if the company has an emergency, like a DDOS, I help, but I ask for a day off in the same week. If there's an opportunity for a raise, I'll try. If I see an opportunity to help the employer, I try, but without suffering. If employer try to umilate me or do not accept the days off from a emergency, like DDOS, etc I will find another job. Your employer will likely never be truly professional, but you can be.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#135

Post by datavirtue »

This will not abate at all given an economic downturn.

The old school keeps waiting for these deeply rooted changes to blow over like a reddit fad. During a downturn I expect the "mellenials" (and all the gen x and others who have joined them) to double down.

I currently jump at any chance to take less pay for less work. The opposite direction holds no appeal to me unless it is my own gig.

Something this pervasive and organic does not blow over.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#136

Post by phpisthebest »

gsibble wrote: post #31

I worked 200% for over 15 years in Silicon Valley. You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON. Hard work only begets hard work these days and not further compensation. The old paths to higher compensation and career growth are dead, and employers killed them. There's no r…

I work 200% for over 20 years outside of Silicon Valley, You know how many raises I got... Lots, you know how many promotions I got, Lots

Maybe it is time to get out of the cesspool that is California

Re: Quiet Quitting

#137

Post by quarterdime »

gsibble wrote: post #31

I worked 200% for over 15 years in Silicon Valley. You know how many raises I got without changing jobs? Zero. You know how many promotions I got? Zero. You know how many bonuses I got? Zero. You know how much more work I got assigned? A TON. Hard work only begets hard work these days and not further compensation. The old paths to higher compensation and career growth are dead, and employers killed them. There's no r…

In my own working experience and speaking with others, this is the part of "quiet quitting" that is too often missed. This is 100% about the question "does extra professional effort on my part, to the point of sacrifices in my personal life, lead to any benefit or reward?"

In game theory terms, if we have a system that increasingly disincentivizes cooperation and incentivizes defection, it should surprise no one to see less cooperation.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#138

Post by falcolas »

NeverFade wrote: post #128
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What irks me most about this no-raise mentality is that you make less effective money year over year than your starting salary due to inflation but your value to the company has increased from experience and institutional knowledge.

> your value to the company has increased from experience and institutional knowledge It's my understanding that regular raises used to be the standard practice in the private sector of the US employment market for this exact reason. Every year, you'd have your performance review, and assuming it wasn't bad, you'd get some sort of a raise. I'm not sure where this nonsensical "no-raise mentality" comes from, when clea…

> Every year, you'd have your performance review, and assuming it wasn't bad, you'd get some sort of a raise.

Even when they do have this, those raises usually max out around 5%. Maybe 10% if you're utterly amazing.

Problem is, you can get 20% just by moving, so unless the company is astonishingly employee friendly, you're always losing out.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#139

Post by datavirtue »

throwaway384769 wrote: post #122
axg11 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the basis of your comment is incorrect. Employees have never had more freedom. Work from home is now widespread. Working hours are more flexible than ever. Workplace benefits have improved drastically over the last 10 years. Percentage of workers with access to maternity/paternity leave is increasing year-over-year. > There has been an erosion and change in the nature of an employee-employer relationship. Thi…

> Work from home is now widespread. Yeah because you don't have an office anymore. If I could have a job with a private office where I could close the door, have peace and quiet, and open the window as I wished, and I had a manager who simply gave me tasks to solve, like our parents had, I would also never quit and work there for 35 years. The working environment and conditions today are terrible in comparison, and p…

I always liked going to the office to hang out (as a 35ish year old) but I would go home if I wanted to get something done. When afternoon hit the office was always too noisy. This was a typical cubicle office environment.

Re: Quiet Quitting

#140

Post by falcolas »

matmatmatmat wrote: post #26

It's interesting to see this from CERN, which is essentially an institution that enables young people to work unlimited hours for next to no pay and virtually no chance of ever attaining significant recognition of their work. In my brief time there, it was not uncommon to hear stories of people who had moved there and not even unpacked all of their belongings after a year or more. On the plus side, if you love partic…

My company hired 2 Doctorate in Physics graduates who both did their doctoral work at CERN...

as SREs.

Let that percolate for a bit.

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