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Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

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Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#61

Post by imtringued »

xeyownt wrote: post #54
malandrew wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

I rather see the opposite. A society cannot live long if it has too much inequality. From inequality comes pressure, that forces the society to adapt or break.

Military rule originates from the fact that the previous rulers thought they can suppress the population through so called guard labor. Once guard labor crosses a point, a huge portion of the population does guard labor which also puts them in the position to replace the ruler because the ruler is entirely dependent on this guard labor.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#62

Post by nine_k »

xeyownt wrote: post #57
nine_k wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very easy to make (almost) everyone equally poor; Communist regimes tried that, mostly with disastrous results. I don't care about income inequality too much. I care about the two extremes: * How bad is the situation of the poorest, can they still live with any decency if they honestly choose to. A society should care about that, if not due to its member being kind and humane, then just due to reasons of self-pr…

Well I do. I cannot imagine any worthwhile society where someone would be entitled to earn 1000 times the average. 10 times is certainly a common-sense maximum. If his only motivation for contributing to the society is to be in the 10-1000 range, I'm pretty sure the society will not miss much his contribution.

An honest question: why do you care? What's your business? What downsides you see?

If somebody makes enough to allow founding a new SpaceX, or a new Intel, or a new network of public libraries [1], or a new medical research center [2], I don't see why that would be bad.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hughes_Medical_Institut...

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#63

Post by imtringued »

radu_floricica wrote: post #41

> After accounting for indirect taxes and in-kind transfers, the US redistributes a greater share of national income to low-income groups than any European country. "Predistribution," not "redistribution," explains why Europe is less unequal than the United States. But that's good, right?... Economists tend to say that if you want to solve a social problem, the least disruptive way of doing it is just giving them mon…

You can pay 200€ to every citizen per month for one year but it can only be spent on natural gas or it can be spent on anything.

Which one is better for gas prices? Which one encourages people to consume less gas? Which one is better for society? Which one is less of a pain to administrate? Which one was already written in the coalition contract?

There is this co2 dividend that the greens and FDP and SPD promised but they delayed it to 2024. I suspect that it is too close to a UBI and they don't want to open that can of worms.

But they are happy to spend more and more money on fossil fuel subsidies to enrich fossil fuel companies. That's where those 200€ per month go. Anyone who doesn't want to spend his money on burning gas gets screwed.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#64

Post by imtringued »

nine_k wrote: post #19
gedy wrote: post #13

I think more important is the reduction in poverty world-wide. "Inequality" has always felt a bit like moving the goalpost.

It's very easy to make (almost) everyone equally poor; Communist regimes tried that, mostly with disastrous results. I don't care about income inequality too much. I care about the two extremes: * How bad is the situation of the poorest, can they still live with any decency if they honestly choose to. A society should care about that, if not due to its member being kind and humane, then just due to reasons of self-pr…

Nobody is going to propose that income should be capped 1000x minimum wage even though that is rational because wealthy people now have an interest in paying poor people more if they want to get richer themselves.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#65

Post by dagw »

spoonjim wrote: post #37
lordnacho wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every kid in Europe goes to uni though?

Yes, European universities are quite cheap but the admissions bar is very high. The expectation is that university is a path for a narrow group rather than a credentialing path for everyone. The academic rigor of the incoming students is very high and there are almost no “party schools” populated 75% by idiots who skip class and get hammered.

the admissions bar is very high. The expectation is that university is a path for a narrow group rather than a credentialing path for everyone.

I feel that that varies a lot from country to country. Certainly in Sweden, if you just graduate from any program at any high school (or get a not terrible score on the university entrance exam), you will get into a university if you want. Probably not the university you want, and probably not to study you first choice subject, but you will get in somewhere.

Of course as you say, getting in is far from a guarantee that you'll actually get a degree.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#66

Post by eesmith »

eesmith wrote: post #31
GiorgioG wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it possible, I ask, that U.S.A. universities openly and notoriously give favorable treatment to the children of past alumni without this being shut down by the lawmaker or the courts? Private institutions can do as they see fit. Public universities not so much. So yes, Harvard alumni will have favorable treatment for their kids. SUNY Buffalo, not so much.

Private institutions which accept government funding, like Harvard, have many more restrictions than those like Hillsdale College which don't. The latter, for example, don't need to follow civil rights rules - https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-co... . Most colleges - public included - have legacy admissions. Why are you so certain SUNY Buffalo does not have legacy admissions? https://www.colle…

Correction. Looks like only 6% of public universities have legacy admissions, not "most". https://www.savingforcollege.com/article/legacy-admissions

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#67

Post by tmnvix »

nine_k wrote: post #62
xeyownt wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I do. I cannot imagine any worthwhile society where someone would be entitled to earn 1000 times the average. 10 times is certainly a common-sense maximum. If his only motivation for contributing to the society is to be in the 10-1000 range, I'm pretty sure the society will not miss much his contribution.

An honest question: why do you care? What's your business? What downsides you see? If somebody makes enough to allow founding a new SpaceX, or a new Intel, or a new network of public libraries [1], or a new medical research center [2], I don't see why that would be bad. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_library [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Hughes_Medical_Institut...

While it's true that 'wealth' isn't directly correlated with claims on our world's natural resources (e.g. 'intellectual property' is included), largely it is.

I would prefer not to live in a society where control of our natural resources (which nobody 'created') is concentrated in proportionally fewer and fewer hands. That to me is what economic inequality means.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#68

Post by anonyme-honteux »

elefanten wrote: post #44
cycomanic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a weird challenge. What do you want a citation for? What he did was a political analysis. So while he could provide citations to political scientists who said similar things that wouldn't make the true necessarily. The "citation needed" only works if you want to assess the premises, so do you want a citation for racism being/having been more widespread or for Europe having had a antisemitism problem?

It was mostly an incoherent ramble. No single citation would've cleared it up anyway.

Or maybe you are too incomfortable about the subject and that's why you never bothered to read the litterature on the subject?

It's fine to not know everything, there are lots of thing I know nothing about.

When I don't know anything about a topic, I have found Wikipedia to become a great starting point to become less ignorant.

How France after having been a "laissez-faire" country (the fucking word is in French!) became the country it is today

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_du_Conseil_national_...

How Clement Atlee transformed the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Attlee

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attlee_ministry

Why the US has for foreigners terribly obvious blind spots

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion

Labor history of the United States

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_history_of_the_United_St...

History of antisemitism in Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_antisemitism

History of racism in the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States

Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

Yes I'm pretty sure you are incomfortable with the topic at hand if you see absolutely no point in my "incoherent rambling"

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#69

Post by anonyme-honteux »

shark_laser wrote: post #45
Gortal278 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed for this assertion.

Unfortunately you don't need a citation or evidence to cry racism. A simple accusation is sufficient these days apparently...

Thanks for asking for evidence, you can start here.

History of racism in the United States of America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_States

There are plenty of good books. You can start with the writings from Martin Luther King.

He wrote ton of words in his life, not only the epic misleading "judge a man not by the color of his skin but by the content of his character"

https://crossculturalsolidarity.com/mlk-speeches-sermons-ess...

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#70

Post by anonyme-honteux »

mupuff1234 wrote: post #42
anonyme-honteux wrote: post #30

Quoted post unavailable.

Aren't Asian Americans the population with the highest median household income?

The "model minority" myth is not an argument against the existence of racism.

It's a divide-and-conquer strategy used by racists to fend off the critics

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority

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