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Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

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Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#31

Post by eesmith »

GiorgioG wrote: post #10
Blikkentrekker wrote: post #6

Is there any industrialized, developed nation that is worse than the U.S.A. in this regard? I heard bad things about the U.K. as well. I turns out that having next to no social security, no accessible education for the poor and the bizarre legality of “legacy scholarships” has a certain effect. How is it possible, I ask, that U.S.A. universities openly and notoriously give favorable treatment to the children of past…

> How is it possible, I ask, that U.S.A. universities openly and notoriously give favorable treatment to the children of past alumni without this being shut down by the lawmaker or the courts? Private institutions can do as they see fit. Public universities not so much. So yes, Harvard alumni will have favorable treatment for their kids. SUNY Buffalo, not so much.

Private institutions which accept government funding, like Harvard, have many more restrictions than those like Hillsdale College which don't. The latter, for example, don't need to follow civil rights rules - https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/07/the-co... .

Most colleges - public included - have legacy admissions.

Why are you so certain SUNY Buffalo does not have legacy admissions?

https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/colleges-that-c... says SUNY at Albany, SUNY College at Geneseo, SUNY College at Oswego, SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry, and SUNY Cortland consider legacy status.

It says SUNY at Purchase College, SUNY College at Potsdam, and SUNY Oneonta do not.

It doesn't mention SUNY Buffalo.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#32

Post by malandrew »

endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally and even then has its limitations.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#33

Post by thinkcontext »

endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

The answer to your question is in the US there is less economic mobility than most of its peer countries.

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/02_econ...

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#34

Post by landemva »

Aeolun wrote: post #24
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I find it hard to imagine anything that qualifies as ‘lack of success’ in the context of Europe. Do you have a house, a car, and children going to college/university? Then you are successful as far as Europe is concerned, and that’s basically everyone. Of course, that’s been going down the drain in the past 10-20ish years for reasons I’m not sure about. Nobody can buy a €500k home on a median salary any more.

I occasionally rented a car when I resided in Europe, though rarely. Parking was a hassle. I wasn't poor.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#35

Post by RHSeeger »

eesmith wrote: post #23
nine_k wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> U.S.A. universities openly and notoriously give favorable treatment to the children of past alumni Are these public colleges, paid for by tax money? I suppose that private institutions have more leeway. To my mind, the problem of the US higher education is that it was made "too" accessible by offering tuition loans, which result in young people taking on a large debt which they cannot even shake off by a personal b…

Yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences "almost three-quarters of research universities and nearly all liberal arts colleges grant legacy preferences in admissions" > by offering tuition loans I think you missed a qualifier. Tuition loans have always existed in the US. What happened a few decades ago was they became much harder to discharge through bankruptcy, thus shifting risk to the student.

What that "yes" an answer to the question of whether or not they're public institutions? Because I was unable to find anything in the link that pointed one way or the other. Though it did not that it may be illegal for public institutions to do so (which slightly implies that at least some are).

Note that I'm not saying that public institutions don't do it; I was just curious about your answer and link.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#37

Post by spoonjim »

lordnacho wrote: post #25
Aeolun wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to imagine anything that qualifies as ‘lack of success’ in the context of Europe. Do you have a house, a car, and children going to college/university? Then you are successful as far as Europe is concerned, and that’s basically everyone. Of course, that’s been going down the drain in the past 10-20ish years for reasons I’m not sure about. Nobody can buy a €500k home on a median salary any more.

Not every kid in Europe goes to uni though?

Yes, European universities are quite cheap but the admissions bar is very high. The expectation is that university is a path for a narrow group rather than a credentialing path for everyone. The academic rigor of the incoming students is very high and there are almost no “party schools” populated 75% by idiots who skip class and get hammered.

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#38

Post by vaidhy »

malandrew wrote: post #32
endisneigh wrote: post #4

I’m unconvinced that inequality matters. A better set of questions would be one like: how much does your parents (lack of) success predict your own? How likely are you to attain some arbitrary yet desirable standard of living, etc. Inequality is related to these things but doesn’t necessarily block them.

I would go a step further and say it’s a feature and not a bug. There are no robust ecosystems in nature where there is equality between all members of that system. The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them. Personally I don’t see how a modern society at scale could ever be equal and fiction. Equality really only works locally a…

Equality in opportunity and equality in outcome are two different things. Even that aside, asking for a baseline equality in living with dignity has nothing to do with diversity of species.

>The most robust ecosystems are those where you have the greatest diversity of species which correlates with inequality between them

I would love to know how you came to this conclusion. Different species occupy different niches when there is a robust ecosystem and there is nothing like inequality between them. There is symbiosis and inter-dependence, but I have not seen one species turn on other for "inequality".

Re: Why Is Europe More Equal Than the United States?

#40

Post by cycomanic »

Gortal278 wrote: post #36
anonyme-honteux wrote: post #30

Quoted post unavailable.

Citation needed for this assertion.

That's a weird challenge. What do you want a citation for?

What he did was a political analysis. So while he could provide citations to political scientists who said similar things that wouldn't make the true necessarily.

The "citation needed" only works if you want to assess the premises, so do you want a citation for racism being/having been more widespread or for Europe having had a antisemitism problem?

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