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Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

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Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#311
post #273
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When people are victims of discrimination based on their race or sex they are likely to complain about it. The fact that some people believe the discrimination is justified is little solace to someone who is actually subject to said discrimination. If that makes you feel gross then you’ll just have to deal with it I guess.

Yes, when a privileged group begins to face a more equitable situation they often feel discriminated against, it doesn't make it true. White men still have incredible advantages in this industry and the half hearted diversity initiatives in the industry haven't changed that at all.

Treating people differently on the basis of race or sex is discrimination.

Equity is explicitly about trying to force equality of outcome between different groups by discriminating against groups that have been deemed privileged and in favor of groups that have been deemed oppressed.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#312
post #53

I was a consultant for an American company that also hired dozens of cheap consultants from development countries. Mostly India but also neighbouring countries and some Eastern European countries. Indians were by far the hardest to work with. They ghosted women systematically which was a nightmare for our project manager. They also lied shamelessly about their qualifications which led to absurd situations. The proble…

My company quickly realized that outsourcing to an offshore Indian company was a mistake. We tried giving them new projects, but it was useless. We still use them, but only for very simple support work. My project was outsourced to them for support. The transition of our mature project to them took about a year. They wanted to replace our 10-12 person team with about 19 of their people. They also needed some of the p…

> And as soon as someone got good, they left the team/company because they could get a better job anywhere else.

they left the company because they could get a "better pay" anywhere else.

For offshore outsourcing company, their only business model is: amount they receive per resource - A. salary per resource - B. fix cost at company level. i.e. office rent, office maintenance, etc.

And Project manager's OKR are mostly to increase margin. Project manager have only control over A. hence they will always try to hire junior resource. So good resource often have to waste time in spoon feeding to rest of the team and they will leave the company as soon as they got better offer/company.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. And well. When it comes to caste, many Indians simply believe it to not exist anymore in India because of how deeply engrained it is in their social classes they never notice i…

> Many of them just can't speak English correctly. Only a small percentage of the individuals who speak English at a proficient level of those who do, they predominately come from very wealthy upper caste families and now you have a new problem. There is something very confusing to me in this paragraph. You put forth as a premise (at least if I am understanding the logic of the paragraph correctly) that fluency in En…

Maybe you should dust off your reading compression skills, his paragraph is pretty self explanatory. He is saying that those who speak English usually come from wealthy families and those whealty families have been raised to treat people from lower caste poorly.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#314

Unfortunately not hiring married women with kids or asking women about their plan to have kids, not hiring older candidates or candidates with sick family members is a common practice in India. Glad that these evil companies are being called out in other parts of the world

I don't believe this at all. I see the exact opposite happening in my Indian company. They are encouraging women leaders so much. I am right now working with one who climbed 2 grades in 2-3 years (which normally would take several years), and she has an all female team now (which is discriminatory by the way). Her male Indian bosses encourage and support her so much, while my male managers treat me (a male) like shit…

Glad to hear your company is a good employer. This is just a guess but is it an Indian tech company? Culture is changing for sure but what’s happening at tech companies doesn’t shows the full picture (though it is also true the other way around). I know several women who were asked about their plan to start family in their job interview. I was myself asked a few years back about my family background and I decided to hide that my father was ill.

The fact that India doesn’t have strong labor laws allows all this to happen. Many existing laws were created for factories and the way they are worded they exclude many present day industries. Also, this is all when considering white collar jobs. Blue collar jobs are just another level of misery.

Again, happy for you but there are people who have suffered because of these practices.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't fungible. Discriminating in favor of some women/minorities doesn't help other other women/minorities elsewhere who have been harmed by discrimination. The goal should be to reduce injustice, not to incur more injustice as a mechanism to achieve parity between arbitrary identity groups.

>Discriminating in favor of some women/minorities doesn't help other other women/minorities elsewhere who have been harmed by discrimination. This line of thinking seems logical but is missing out on the human experience part of the equation. It doesn’t address why things are the way they are today. Affirmative Action, for lack of a better phrase, does a lot of things: 1) It provides representation for the future. “M…

Those are the general arguments in favor of Affirmative Action, but neither explain why we only apply them selectively when we feel like it. "Mom went to college so so can I" is relevant for people who lived in the 50-90s, but for those entering college today, the mother is more likely to have a college degree than the father. "Father went to college so so can I" should be the intention today if we want to fix gender inequality in college graduates.

The “oddball” feeling is also very real in profession where a single gender represent over 80%. It was one of the finding in a government report in Sweden why so few men chooses to enter the education profession. With a majority of people working in profession with significant gender imbalance, universal affirmative action would help to reduce the problem of people perceiving a toxic working environment. A universal problem should be solved using universal methods.

For normalizing, there is two primary strategic methods. You can treat people special as with affirmative action, or you can treat people being there as being normal by treating people as individuals. Both methods works, but they also work against each other. Treating people as special create hostility and resentment, while treating everyone as individuals has the risk being perceived as supporting statues quo.

And yes, we can start at the top. Affirmative action at college applications is not the same as affirmative action at board members. Affirmative action should be universally applied using common rules, but that is sadly not how it get applied. The few times people try to make common rules for affirmative action it get abandoned quickly because the wrong group benefited from it, or it get removed based on anti-discrimination laws.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#316
post #267

Unfortunately not hiring married women with kids or asking women about their plan to have kids, not hiring older candidates or candidates with sick family members is a common practice in India. Glad that these evil companies are being called out in other parts of the world

This is a US lawsuit, filed by a non-Indian Infosys employee, against other non-Indian executives at their US office.

I know but there’s also a thing called company culture

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people are running a marathon, half way through it is discovered half of them had been given weighted shoes that made them run significantly slower. The organizers and racers agree this is wrong and unfair, and so they make sure everyone has correct shoes for the rest of the race. Yet those half of the racers that had weighted shoes are several miles behind the rest. What would you suggest be done?

Bad analogy. That’s like suggesting we give racers in the next race an advantage because of what happened in the current race, which creates obvious unfair outcomes.

[deleted]

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#318
post #309
post #53

I was a consultant for an American company that also hired dozens of cheap consultants from development countries. Mostly India but also neighbouring countries and some Eastern European countries. Indians were by far the hardest to work with. They ghosted women systematically which was a nightmare for our project manager. They also lied shamelessly about their qualifications which led to absurd situations. The proble…

> They also lied shamelessly about their qualifications which led to absurd situations. This I have experience with. The word absurd is not an exaggeration, it might not even be enough to describe it. >They ghosted women systematically which was a nightmare for our project manager. I dont understand this sentence. Does Ghosted here mean something different to ghosting in hiring?

I assume they didn't answer questions or requests from women, or otherwise silently refused to directly work with them.

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#319
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushing for more women/minorities in STEM/leadership positions = you're fixing the global problem, doing the opposite = you're making the global problem worse.

People aren't fungible. Discriminating in favor of some women/minorities doesn't help other other women/minorities elsewhere who have been harmed by discrimination. The goal should be to reduce injustice, not to incur more injustice as a mechanism to achieve parity between arbitrary identity groups.

Discriminating in favor or certain minorities is as close as you can get to balancing the injustice. Consider how many covert ways there is for biases to systematically screw over people, and how impossible it can be to definitively prove.

* The things you were exposed to as a child. Whether or not you know/see people who look like you in a certain career path.

* Whether or not you feel like you fit in at certain classes in school.

* The biases of your mentors and whom they choose to invest in. People favor other people who they feel are similar. This impacts who gets opportunities for further training positions. Who they write recommendations for. Who gets opportunities for internships. Each of these choices compound, as people with more opportunities look better than people with less.

* The biases of your peers and coworkers. Who gets blamed when things go poorly. Who gets credit for successes.

On the individual level, it's usually difficult to point out exactly where the injustice occurs to know how to address it in real time. As a population however, you can tell that it occurs. People within these groups get no benefit of the doubt. They will have to overachieve to get the same opportunities as others. With that in mind, it becomes much more reasonable to essentially reverse discriminate. Given two people with the same resume, with person A being from an underrepresented group and person B who is not, the best candidate is likely A who has had the additional burden of biases.

Doing this at large actually will reduce the biases. As it becomes normal to see the underrepresented group in a career path:

* More kids will see people like them in the career, leading to more trying it

* Classes will be more diverse and welcoming so more will stick to it

* Mentors are likely more diverse as well and will give opportunities to other people that look like them

* When you don't stick out, it's more likely you'll be treated fairly by peers and coworkers

Re: Infosys asked HR not to hire 'Indian-origin candidates', 'women with children'

#320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You opened your post with the following quote: > this is not a good criticism of affirmative action programs. I then pointed out we have statistics showing affirmative action unfairly disadvantages Asians and that the supreme court is going to hear arguments about it. "but but ... I was talking about ECONOMIC discrimination!". No, you're just a fan of weasel words. What you were trying to imply with your comment abou…

I see your point, and I apologize for not being as clear as I could have been. I do still think that "this could make a poor, hardworking Asian kid not get a college position because of a rich Black kid" is a very bad criticism; it conflates some very emotionally resonant topics in a way that isn't justifiable. I also think that this conflation was done for ideological reasons. I do want to respond to this, though: >…

> a rich black American kid" implies, at least to me, that our hypothetical Asian student isn't American

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