The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity • Hacker News Board

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#51

Post by ch4s3 » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:37 AM UTC

fritolaid wrote: post #13

itslennysfault wrote: post #3

small but important correction... > However, when society industrialised, a rigid, five-day, 40-hour workweek arose in factory settings ummm... no. More like the 6 day 16 hour per day work-week arose in factory settings. The five-day, 40-hour workweek was fought and died for by the labor movement.

in tech, we don't really have 40hr/wk. It's more like 80hr/wk. And work on weekends. If you have a position that requires 40hrs/wk or less and no work on weekends whatsoever, consider yourself lucky. I hear stories about colleagues being overworked on continuous basis.

You should really try to find a new job. Crazy hours outside of some startups and super high paying jobs in a few sectors are not the norm in tech. Most people I know in the industry in NYC work 35-40 and do just fine.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#52

Post by barry-cotter » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:38 AM UTC

googlryas wrote: post #46

srveale wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, the 20th century standard of owning a home with land and providing for a family of 8, easily affordable on 13 hrs per week.

When has providing for a family of eight been the norm in america? I assume you're thinking something like two kids plus all four grandparents living under one roof? That's never been the norm.

Most of the 1600s and 1700s for New England. Quebec for longer, possibly the end of unit 1800s. That’s average number of children per woman, not an extended family. 1800s Ireland, which was probably poorer than the US has been since 1600 had similar fertility.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#53

Post by ch4s3 » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:43 AM UTC

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #5

>In decades past, non-linear workdays used to be fairly uncommon. They still are fairly uncommon. Source: traffic jams. But for real. There is a trend to be a little more flexible, yet most places in the world continue to require the most obvious candidates for both remote and asynchronous work to function 'hybrid' and synchronously. It's incredibly telling Tuesdays and Thursdays are the days everything ends up jamme…

There are other ways to work. My team has a mid day standup a few days a week and it’s ok to miss sometimes. You’re expected to communicate primarily in writing and people keep different hours, it’s quite nice. We’re all adults here.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#54

Post by cratermoon » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:43 AM UTC

To be completely honest, with cognitive labor, i.e. what programmers and other "knowledge workers" do, the relationship between time spent working and productive output is completely erased. In contrast with the factory and plant work, where it's pretty easy to say that in N hours a worker can produce Y units, knowledge work can't be reduced to value/time spent.

Anyone who has been programming for very long and been asked to give and adhere to time-based estimates knows this problem. The best we can do is look at a task and say how big or complicated it looks, but putting an hour or day number on it is impossible.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#55

Post by barry-cotter » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:44 AM UTC

idiotsecant wrote: post #9

jdminhbg wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Productivity gains do not lead to increased worker benefit, they lead to increased owner benefit. Organized labor leads to increased worker benefit.

Nah, depends on the ability to coordinate. Communist governments can suppress wages even with enormous productivity gains, like post 1949 Shanghai. Capitalists mostly can’t though. Even with non state puppet unions completely illegal as in the PRC or Vietnam competition for workers leads to rises in wages. Maintaining a cartel without being able to enforce contracts to that effect is hard with fewer than 10 conspirators. Once you have more than 100 people bidding for workers’ labour it’s impossible.

Unions aren’t necessary for increasing wages. We can tell from countries that they’re illegal.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#56

Post by musicale » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:45 AM UTC

fritolaid wrote: post #13

itslennysfault wrote: post #3

small but important correction... > However, when society industrialised, a rigid, five-day, 40-hour workweek arose in factory settings ummm... no. More like the 6 day 16 hour per day work-week arose in factory settings. The five-day, 40-hour workweek was fought and died for by the labor movement.

in tech, we don't really have 40hr/wk. It's more like 80hr/wk. And work on weekends. If you have a position that requires 40hrs/wk or less and no work on weekends whatsoever, consider yourself lucky. I hear stories about colleagues being overworked on continuous basis.

> And work on weekends

I read that Tim Cook has a weekly Sunday evening meeting with his staff; this seems reasonable, since that time might otherwise be wasted on family, friends, or home responsibilities - rather than taking care of critically important Apple business that can't wait until Monday morning.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#57

Post by cratermoon » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:47 AM UTC

jacknews wrote: post #23

mkl95 wrote: post #6

Something that the software industry has to assimilate eventually is that unless your organization is very efficient, there's not a big difference between working for 6 or 10 hours a day. Scrum / agile / whatever as understood by most companies does not prevent context switching, synchronous work that could be done asynchronously, and interruptions. When added together, those things shrink your team's capacity massiv…

It's extremely taxing to do more than about 6 hours of real, actual work a day, so any extra hours are almost necessarily spent in less taxing activities like meetings etc.

Even 6 hours is pushing it. I looked around and found that 4 hours is widely regarded as typical for real 'deep' work.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#58

Post by barry-cotter » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #32

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is demonstrably untrue - looking at the tech industry for example. Salaries are enormous with no unions. You shouldn’t state opinions as fact.

I think you've misinterpreted GP. Tech salaries started high, and that is mostly a scarcity problem. The market will correct that in due time without labor organizing because the profits go to the owners, not the workers. The owners are the ones who decide what happens with the profit (reinvestment, their employees' wages, their own wages, etc.).

Yes, with a powerful union you can restrict entry so there are fewer workers. The workers who are allowed in get a better deal. The people who are kept out by the union suffer and the consumers suffer through lower production and higher prices.

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#59

Post by soupfordummies » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:50 AM UTC

cercatrova wrote: post #49

christophilus wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meetings are the most taxing part of the job to me. I can program for 10 hours when I’m in a flow state. I can sit in a meeting for maybe 10 minutes before I start doodling.

Sounds like symptoms of adult ADHD from what I've read on HN about it.

Also sounds like symptoms of boredom :P

Re: The non-linear workdays changing the shape of productivity

#60

Post by bertr4nd » Fri, Oct 07, 2022, 2:51 AM UTC

Honestly I’ve been longing for a linear workday. Before kids, and before the pandemic, I used to work 9-6 and I had the most fantastic work life balance. Distance running, rock climbing, etc.

Now I have “flexible” work hours, and it’s all cramming in whatever I can late at night so that I can accommodate the schedule of kids’ daycare. If we didn’t have flex hours, one of my wife or I would have no choice but to quit to manage the kids, and we’d have less income but probably be happier. But since we have the choice it’s all too tempting to keep burning the candle at both ends and the middle.