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Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

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Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#811

Post by hackerlight »

andrew_ wrote: post #797
mint2 wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing surer than debates on the internet eventually leading to nazi comparisons is that some commenter will then cite godwins law. It’s actually godwins second law of nature. how pertinent nazis are to the topic is not relevant, Godwin’s law will be brought up and very often inappropriately as even Godwin himself has noted. “Godwin's law itself can be applied mistakenly or abused as a distraction, diversion…

And yet it doesn't make it any less true. The correlation exists, just as tides to moon phase, and doesn't negate the existence of either. HN has turned into that one site where any remotely ideological topic, any minutely political (cue the "everything is political crowd") will invariably bring out the "BUT NAZIS" replies. It's insufferable.

Bringing up Godwin's law as meta commentary is a thought terminating rhetorical tactic. It isn't an argument and it conveys no information.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#812

Post by kenjackson »

mpweiher wrote: post #786
kenjackson wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 1-4, we will mostly set that aside for now. But I do think that most people find it obviously true -- it just may or may not be to their benefit to say so. Identity politics does lead to bad outcomes, yet here we are. Unfortunately we've gotten ourselves to the point that now acting like there are no identities is just another form of identity politics. E.g., saying "lets stop talking about gender -- we have male…

> For 1-4, we will mostly set that aside for now. Hmm... > most people find it obviously true Reminds me of the rental manager at my London flat justifying a raise in my rent with "well, rents are rising". When I confronted him with his own organisation's web site, which unambiguously said that rents were flat or falling, he countered with "Statistics aside, rents are rising". But I see the problem. Previously you cl…

There’s a lot here that is wrong, but you clearly won’t admit it. That said for others still reading here is a good article:

https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5978551/study-racism-criminal-j...

I know it doesn’t sell well, but most whites do, at some level, prefer blacks not to do well. Not because they necessarily hate blacks, but in aggregate it means they’ll do less well (in aggregate).

So you talk about facts, but the data shows that whites will choose to enact policy they think hurts blacks. Those are the facts.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#813

Post by hbrn »

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #767
hbrn wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health Which should eventually lead to forgiveness, right? The framework presented does not include forgiveness at all, the crimes are treated as unforgivable and atonement is eternal. Which clearly indicates that their goal is not to end discrimination.

Discrimination is but a small part of the otherization/dehumanization and subjugation disempowered groups are subjected to. To focus on discrimination without regard for the broader socioeconomic landscape different demographics find themselves in by luck of birth is to not see the forest for the trees. Perhaps we should consider what crimes are treated by America as unforgivable as a way to establish common ground a…

What's laughable is failing to recognize that regardless of your skin color and socioeconomic status, if you were born in the US, you are one of the most privileged people in the world.

Have you considered that blaming white folks for your all problems might be one of the main reasons those problems persist?

Indians, Latinos, Asians move to the US with no money to their name, work their assess off and achieve success. Do you think they are not being discriminated against?

Your "generational problems" are a minor nuisance compared to the struggles of the rest of the world. Maybe it's time to stop with the despicable victimhood and whining?

Heed my words, the biggest change to well-being of the black community will not come from the policies. It will come from within.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#814

Post by kenjackson »

josephg wrote: post #743
kenjackson wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one will take your house for that reason by itself. But they might take it when you can no longer afford to pay the mortgage because you were convicted of a drug felony where you were given a harsher sentence than someone of a different race, after being arrested under suspicion that others wouldn’t be. As a result you can’t find a job after release from prison.

> because you were convicted of a drug felony where you were given a harsher sentence than someone of a different race Sounds racist. I’m not comfortable with that.

Welcome to the world today.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#815

Post by MisterBastahrd »

hbrn wrote: post #807
MisterBastahrd wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's adorable. When white people have kids, they have to give their children the birds and the bees talk when they reach an appropriate age. When black people have kids, they have to give them the same talk, and also the one where you need to be really careful about acting a specific way around cops lest they unalive you because police officers view blacks as more aggressive than whites because of prejudice. As lon…

How would you know it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy? Have you considered that giving the talk and installing the idea that "cops are your enemy" might cause your kids to run away or resist the police, thus unnecessarily escalating what could be a perfectly civil interaction?

Because people aren't pulling themselves over and and shooting themselves. They aren't invading their own homes and shooting themselves. They aren't kneeling on their own chests and asphyxiating themselves. And the simple fact of the matter is that this is a RESPONSE to how cops have treated minorities for generations. Pretending that educating children on how to act around people who have a preconception that the color of your skin causes you to be a threat is racist gaslighting.

There's a speed trap in Louisiana that I passed through for over 30 years. I've never seen a white person behind the wheel of a car with a police car nearby unless it was a traffic accident, I've seen tons of white motorists pass through the area far above the speed limit, and the community is 60% white. Meanwhile, I saw black folks pulled over literally every day. Please whitesplain to me how being wary of the cops in that stretch is the fault of black folks.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#816

Post by dekhn »

chaxor wrote: post #507
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies that show the genetic diversity of the continent of Africa are in fact "anti-racist". They truthfully reveal that the psuedoscientific 19th century ideas we refer to as race had no scientific basis. Some people really haven't taken this "truth" well though. They still try to fit every new fact into their old model. Like "West African Scorpios" are much more open to emotion, while "East African Scorpios" are o…

I don't understand the argument that genetics isn't correlated with race. I would imagine a better argument is that it's a spectrum - but the fact is that when plotting the principle components of any large scale set of human genetic data from around the world, self reported race actually clusters (PC isn't even a clustering technique) quite well. So the fact that the axes of tbe largest explained variance of the dat…

It's correct to say that: there is a genetic history to all humans, and that history roughly correlates with pre-scientific clustering of humans by visible attributes.

The academic claim that "Race is not scientific" is really an overstatement of the case being made by people who are very optimistic but also fairly good at overlooking some fairly well understood science. It's not a universally held opinion but most people who disagree with it are fairly circumspect because it's very easy to get cancelled by talking about race and science in public.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#817

Post by philosopher1234 »

Jochim wrote: post #804
philosopher1234 wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the hostility from the right holding them back? It doesn’t seem like it. is it only the left that is not allowed to have aggression?

I didn't say the left aren't allowed to have aggression. However, I do think it needs to be directed at the right people. My point was that the right are much more likely to look past things they might disagree with rather than excluding that person entirely. The most obvious example of this being evangelical support for Trump (and other Republicans) despite his numerous affairs. I'm in no way saying that going that…

> My point was that the right are much more likely to look past things they might disagree with rather than excluding that person entirely.

Like women who have abortions? Gay people? Trans people? Liberals? Communists?

I'm not against flexibility, but IMO the left is far too forgiving, and needs to be much more aggressive. the Trump right is a fascist party, and the left needs to openly recognize that.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#818

Post by hbrn »

janef0421 wrote: post #558
curioushacking wrote: post #465

My understand for how we measure systemic racism issues seems to typically be predicated on assumed outcomes. For example that if the distribution of employees race does not match the general population then there must be a systemic cause for this. What I don’t understand is why that is assumed true. If we want to encourage many different cultures to live together wouldn’t it naturally make sense that different cultu…

It's not unreasonable to think that cultural preferences might influence job roles in academia, but in a country with a strong and poorly addressed history of racism, the assumption should be that it results from discrimination. Cultural factor should only be considered if there is strong evidence for them, otherwise they would be used as a rhetorical justification for maintaining discriminatory systems.

> in a country with a strong and poorly addressed history of racism

Is there a diverse country that doesn't have a strong history of racism?

Is US worse than India, with it's caste system?

Is US worse than China, with it's Uyghur genocide?

Is US worse than Russia with it's Slavs-only rental ads?

Mind you, those are not the examples of past discriminations.

Is it possible that the reason you know more about discrimination in the US is not because US had more of it, but because you are better educated about US?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#819

Post by pas »

HyperSane wrote: post #741
pas wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I can't really say much about this. It's typical vague bullshit. Kendi projects everything onto white people. (This argument/rant that "white person does X and now they think racism is no more" or "white person does X and now white person is automatically a hypocrite" is typical in radical social justice texts. Here he hedges it with "too many" white people have this belief.) That said,…

"That said, I don't see where they say that fuck poor Asians, or where they say that being black entitles someone to more social help/justice than being a poor Asian. " It isn't just Asians, any racial minority that is "too" successful, like Jews, Indians, Asians, Persians, etc, would be hurt by Kendi's ideas because they are essentially just the same philosophy that is mocked in the story Harrison Bergeron. Kendi th…

> Kendi thinks any difference in outcome between racial groups proves racism and thus must be fixed.

that's a bold claim, if Kendi is as explicit about this as you say, can you please find a quote on this?

this whole thread is about radicalist dude is radical, because ABC; okay, please show me where in his radical writings he says ABC; and then nothing.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#820

Post by mpweiher »

kenjackson wrote: post #812
mpweiher wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For 1-4, we will mostly set that aside for now. Hmm... > most people find it obviously true Reminds me of the rental manager at my London flat justifying a raise in my rent with "well, rents are rising". When I confronted him with his own organisation's web site, which unambiguously said that rents were flat or falling, he countered with "Statistics aside, rents are rising". But I see the problem. Previously you cl…

There’s a lot here that is wrong, but you clearly won’t admit it. That said for others still reading here is a good article: https://www.vox.com/2014/8/7/5978551/study-racism-criminal-j... I know it doesn’t sell well, but most whites do, at some level, prefer blacks not to do well. Not because they necessarily hate blacks, but in aggregate it means they’ll do less well (in aggregate). So you talk about facts, but the…

> There’s a lot here that is wrong, but you clearly won’t admit it.

No there's not. And you're perfect at the old Russian tactic of "accuse the other side of the thing that you are doing".

You've been proven wrong at just about every turn, but you can't admit it, and then you ... drumroll ... double down.

And if it's Vox, it is almost certainly misrepresented. Which, drumroll, it is. From the original study:

"We found that exposing people to extreme racial disparities in the prison population heightened their fear of crime ..."

So it wasn't racism. It was fear of crime. Doh.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09567976145403...

And of course the claim that this is "intrinsic" is both unproven and almost certainly false, which you would know if you looked at the actual data.

Which you obviously will not.

'nuff said. Have a good one.

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