Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

reason.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

711–720 of 906 posts

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#711

Post by specialist »

rhaksw wrote: post #173

Free Speech for Me--But Not for Thee: How the American Left and Right Relentlessly Censor Each Other (1992) [1] is a good read on how we got to a point where our ability to communicate across ideologies appears to be broken in many ways. For example, in 1963 Yale disinvited George Wallace, who was popular in the deep south, as a speaker. As a result, observers were deprived of a chance to hear opposing speakers' argu…

Whoops. I owe you an apology.

I blindly accepted your claim that Wallace was not permitted to speak at Yale. That's not true. I regret not being more skeptical. I am fail. Please accept my most humble apology.

TLDR: Yale Political Union invites Wallace. President Kingman Brewster Jr blocks. Much drama. Including local black leaders and civil rights activists, who defended Wallace's appearance per principles of free speech and academic stuff. Brewster removes block. Two student groups reinvite Wallace. Wallace declines, though he did speak at other Ivy League schools.

Described more fully p104-106 in Hentoff's book "Free speech for me--but not for thee", which you cited.

Here's 4 more articles, to round out the reality-based version of that incident:

https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de...

"Free Speech, Personified" NYT [2017] https://archive.ph/LvAHn About the 1963 incident, how Pauli Murray appealed to Brewster to let the white supremacist speak, and how Yale recommitted towards and continues to uphold free speech.

Blurb from 1963 about the incident. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1963/9/27/yale-provost-br...

Report of the Committee on Freedom of Expression at Yale [1974?] https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de...

--

FWIW, I now don't understand your other cites. [2] Is just common sense. [3] Unrelated. [4] Might be broken.

Though I do agree with Jack Newfield that mocking racists and neoreactionaries should be avoided. We now know that right wing partisans are personally insulted when their leader is criticized or mocked. (Probably something about having their identity wrapped up in the demagogue. Who knows.) So mockery just drives those partisans further away.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#712

Post by scelerat »

rayiner wrote: post #231

The irony of “anti racism” is that its core goal of racial preferences is one championed mainly by white elite administrators. Let’s be clear: most minorities oppose explicit racial preferences, including Black people: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2019/05/08/america... In a recent example, the California ballot measure that would have legalized racial preferences in the state failed overwhelmingly, inclu…

I must admit I'm ignorant about Elizabeth Warren's DEI or Kendian anti-racism advocacy. How does she figure in here?

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#713

Post by rayiner »

deepl_derber wrote: post #677
xyzzyz wrote: post #602

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO, the only way to move forward is to correct past wrongs by heavily investing in affected communities economically and afa education and health. As if we hadn't been doing that for past 60 years, with extremely underwhelming (in fact, arguably negative) outcomes.

The outcomes have been underwhelming because we (at least, the US) haven't actually been doing this, and we've just found new and arguably worse ways to maintain deeply racist policies.

If what you say is true, books like “how to be an antiracist” would include examples of these “arguably worse” mechanisms to maintain inequality. They don’t contain such examples. Indeed, a central premise of Kendi’s book is that affirmative measures are required because simply “not being racist” doesn’t work.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#714

Post by rayiner »

Spivak wrote: post #706
ponow wrote: post #664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think that it should be Why is it your choice to make? When you hire someone, you're hiring everything they bring to the table. You might be wrong in your interpretation, but it's what you've got. So perhaps you find names beyond the pale, but why not dress codes too? Names and many other characteristics involve human choices well beyond genetics. You do realize that the orchestras used to hire blind, that…

> The DIE crowd does not want fairness and equality of opportunity; they want equality of outcome I always find it weird that people see this is a bad thing. Equality of outcome is equity. Extra time for people with learning disabilities is equity, ada regulations is equity, hearing aids, glasses, booster seats, handicaps in golf and chess, giving bus seats to the elderly are all equity. Equity is the thing we natura…

> Who is the more impressive student? Alice who had a stable suburban comfortable upbringing and went to prestigious private high school and got a 34 on her ACT, or Bob who grew up with a single father, went to a public high school in an high needs district, had to work a part time job after school and babysit his little brother every day before his dad got home and got a 29?

The kid with the higher score is a more impressive student. But there might certainly be a justification for giving the kid who had a tougher road to get there a leg up.

But that’s different from what we’re doing, where we apply racist assumptions and treat certain minorities as if they’re all from single parent homes, regardless of whether that’s true for the individual.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#715

Post by pas »

HyperSane wrote: post #529
pas wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read anything from him (except that one line, I assume, you quoted a few comments back), but now I'm interested. Can you cite the relevant parts?

Kendi argues that policy outcomes are central in measuring and effecting racial equity. He has said, "All along we've been trying to change people, when we really need to change policies." When speaking in November 2020 to the Alliance for Early Success, Kendi was asked if that even means abiding racist behavior and attitudes if it leads to winning an antiracist policy. Kendi answered with a definitive yes. "I want t…

Thanks for the detailed reply!

I can't really say much about this. It's typical vague bullshit. Kendi projects everything onto white people. (This argument/rant that "white person does X and now they think racism is no more" or "white person does X and now white person is automatically a hypocrite" is typical in radical social justice texts. Here he hedges it with "too many" white people have this belief.)

That said, I don't see where they say that fuck poor Asians, or where they say that being black entitles someone to more social help/justice than being a poor Asian.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#716

Post by bluescrn »

remarkEon wrote: post #683
bluescrn wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about being banned from the entire banking system? It might not have happened yet, but I suspect we're heading in that direction. We've seen 'speech related' bans from Paypal and crowdfunding sites. Paypal even deplatformed the (UK-based) Free Speech Union (although they reverted that decision after the backlash)

When people with the wrong opinions (on who knows what, frankly, the list keeps changing) get banned from banking systems the very same people will be in the thread defending the sanctions and censorship action. “Just build your own bank.” “Just build your own currency.”

It's like the tech tree from the Civ games in reverse.

To develop 'Social Network' or 'Digital Currencies', you need 'Server Farm', 'Internet', and 'Power Grid', and to have those you need everything from 'Intercontintental Data Cables' to 'Semiconductor Manufacturing', and way back to extraction and refining of raw materials..

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#717

Post by Spivak »

rayiner wrote: post #714
Spivak wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The DIE crowd does not want fairness and equality of opportunity; they want equality of outcome I always find it weird that people see this is a bad thing. Equality of outcome is equity. Extra time for people with learning disabilities is equity, ada regulations is equity, hearing aids, glasses, booster seats, handicaps in golf and chess, giving bus seats to the elderly are all equity. Equity is the thing we natura…

> Who is the more impressive student? Alice who had a stable suburban comfortable upbringing and went to prestigious private high school and got a 34 on her ACT, or Bob who grew up with a single father, went to a public high school in an high needs district, had to work a part time job after school and babysit his little brother every day before his dad got home and got a 29? The kid with the higher score is a more i…

> treat certain minorities as if they’re all from single parent homes

That’s not what you should have taken from that example at all, which is specifically why I used two white coded names. The point is that people grok individual disadvantages easily and giving them a leg up feels natural, and the same reasoning should be applied to systematic disadvantages.

> regardless of whether that’s true for the individual.

What you’re describing is looking at privilege through the lense of intersectionality, which nobody disagrees with.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#718

Post by specialist »

kbelder wrote: post #583
specialist wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's amusing that Chomsky at least says one sensible thing, and that's what causes the far left to reject him.

Chomsky is the far left, at least in America. Of course the neoliberals (center-right) rejected him.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#719

Post by canadiantim »

orf wrote: post #375
canadiantim wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mhmm, because of course everyone knows that we order the letters in an acronym according to the least rememberable order, right?

You seem to know very little about the topic and yet seem to have strong opinions about what the “social justice crowd” is up to. I’d reflect on that.

You seem to defend the social justice crowd without putting in any critical thinking for yourself.

I'd reflect on that.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#720

Post by autoexec »

hackerlight wrote: post #491
Izkata wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you haven't heard of Daryl Davis? He's a black guy who went out of his way to befriend KKK members, and many of them ended up leaving the KKK when they realized he didn't fit what they were told about black people. Censorship would not have helped, they had to be shown that they were wrong. That's what "sunlight is the best disinfectant" means.

They may not have adopted those beliefs if those beliefs had been censored to begin with. They adopted those beliefs from someone.

From what I can tell most racists are either born into it (grew up surrounded by it) or fall into it looking for a place to fit in. Mere exposure to an idea is insufficient. I propose you test this 'idea virus' theory yourself. Go find a racist podcast and see how many episodes it takes for you to start thinking that jews and black people are inferior. I'm going to go ahead and guess that no amount of hate speech will cause you to think that way, but feel free to try to prove me wrong.
Post reply on HN