Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society • Hacker News Board

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#491

Post by hackerlight » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

Izkata wrote: post #456

hackerlight wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I take it you haven't heard of Daryl Davis? He's a black guy who went out of his way to befriend KKK members, and many of them ended up leaving the KKK when they realized he didn't fit what they were told about black people. Censorship would not have helped, they had to be shown that they were wrong. That's what "sunlight is the best disinfectant" means.

They may not have adopted those beliefs if those beliefs had been censored to begin with. They adopted those beliefs from someone.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#492

Post by fareesh » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:07 PM UTC

seattle_spring wrote: post #450

fareesh wrote: post #223

This is now firmly in religious territory. Is there much of a difference between this and halal/kosher certification?

Ironically, most of the people against DEI are also likely people who would be AOK with more Christianity in schools and academics.

I think both are worth fighting against, and I would ally with either camp for that purpose

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#493

Post by kenjackson » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:10 PM UTC

josephg wrote: post #106

blix wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tomato tomahto. The important thing is establishing that one group has too many resources which rightfully belong to some other group. The rest is implementation detail.

> The important thing is establishing that one group has too many resources which rightfully belong to some other group I understand the arguments, but I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with the police taking someone's house from them because they're white.

No one will take your house for that reason by itself. But they might take it when you can no longer afford to pay the mortgage because you were convicted of a drug felony where you were given a harsher sentence than someone of a different race, after being arrested under suspicion that others wouldn’t be. As a result you can’t find a job after release from prison.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#494

Post by mistermann » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #484

curioushacking wrote: post #465

My understand for how we measure systemic racism issues seems to typically be predicated on assumed outcomes. For example that if the distribution of employees race does not match the general population then there must be a systemic cause for this. What I don’t understand is why that is assumed true. If we want to encourage many different cultures to live together wouldn’t it naturally make sense that different cultu…

> How do you separate potential racism from cultural differences? By conducting studies where you study the effect of the race variable. This has been done many times over in multiple countries and the results have shown that colored people and racial minorities are discriminated against. But despite the vast amount of empirical data, people still refuse to believe that racial discrimination is a factor in the job ma…

It is perhaps worth mentioning that this is actually only a means for potentially learning what is going on, and that it can also lead one into a state of confident confusion/misunderstanding.

Study results may only suggest something, which can often have the appearance of showing it.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#495

Post by sacrosancty » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

bjourne wrote: post #484

curioushacking wrote: post #465

My understand for how we measure systemic racism issues seems to typically be predicated on assumed outcomes. For example that if the distribution of employees race does not match the general population then there must be a systemic cause for this. What I don’t understand is why that is assumed true. If we want to encourage many different cultures to live together wouldn’t it naturally make sense that different cultu…

> How do you separate potential racism from cultural differences? By conducting studies where you study the effect of the race variable. This has been done many times over in multiple countries and the results have shown that colored people and racial minorities are discriminated against. But despite the vast amount of empirical data, people still refuse to believe that racial discrimination is a factor in the job ma…

No post body was provided.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#496

Post by workingon » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:12 PM UTC

trention wrote: post #299

workingon wrote: post #282

Academic societies can have whatever ideologies they wish. Go present at a conference that doesn't have an ideology you don't have. That's true freedom. This is the same thing as Trump complaining about being banned from twitter. It's anti-capitalism and anti-freedom.

Can an academic society in the USA today have an ideology explicitly presented as "the advancement and preservation of the white race"? No? Then your whole argument falls apart.

Yes, it definitely can. It'd just be laughed out of the building and no one but assholes would present there. AKA freedom works perfectly

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#497

Post by mistermann » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

xctr94 wrote: post #472

Slava_Propanei wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This isn’t Reddit. Sarcasm adds nothing to GP’s question.

The ideas within a comment that is stated in a sarcastic form on the other hand, still possess the same value as they would have if stated in a different form. A sarcastic form may render the value invisible from certain frames of reference, but it is still there.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#498

Post by mlyle » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:17 PM UTC

nequo wrote: post #471

mlyle wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it's explicitly giving an advantage to submissions that engage with these diversity goals. Favoring research of understudied populations makes a lot of sense and is necessary. Favoring researchers based on their own personal diversity metrics is controversial. Favoring research whose findings support specific diversity-related desired outcomes is dangerous (and the policy may do this in practice).

> Well, it's explicitly giving an advantage to submissions that engage with these diversity goals. I honestly don’t understand your problem with this. Historically, the majority of humanity was not a part of social science study. For example, economics has a tradition of drawing conclusions about the labor market based on data only on American white males (literally). This has been changing and it reveals blind spots…

I feel like you didn't read my comment. It contained:

> Favoring research of understudied populations makes a lot of sense and is necessary.

Which is in direct agreement with what you wrote in response.

> Favoring researchers based on their own personal diversity metrics is controversial.

But it also acknowledges there are aspects others may find controversial. The policy extends beyond sample selection and populations addressed in research, and e.g. favors researchers from diverse backgrounds. Personally, I think this is useful (more perspectives good; more inclusion in science good)-- within reason.

> Favoring research whose findings support specific diversity-related desired outcomes is dangerous (and the policy may do this in practice).

And it points out that if interpretation of the policy extends too far, that by only allowing certain types of outcome to publish, it could create distortions. The worry is that the latter criteria in the policy could reach here.

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#499

Post by wahnfrieden » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

sacrosancty wrote: post #495

bjourne wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you separate potential racism from cultural differences? By conducting studies where you study the effect of the race variable. This has been done many times over in multiple countries and the results have shown that colored people and racial minorities are discriminated against. But despite the vast amount of empirical data, people still refuse to believe that racial discrimination is a factor in the job ma…

Quoted post unavailable.

>innate qualities measured by IQ

is contested/wrong

Re: Mandated diversity statement drives Jonathan Haidt to quit academic society

#500

Post by Latty » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:20 PM UTC

sacrosancty wrote: post #495

bjourne wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you separate potential racism from cultural differences? By conducting studies where you study the effect of the race variable. This has been done many times over in multiple countries and the results have shown that colored people and racial minorities are discriminated against. But despite the vast amount of empirical data, people still refuse to believe that racial discrimination is a factor in the job ma…

Quoted post unavailable.

IQ is a deeply questionable metric to start with (I have yet to see good evidence IQ tests measure anything more than "how good at IQ tests you are", and as a child I obsessed over them and got very good at them by learning how to approach them, which means it very much isn't measuring something innate), tests are often (and in the case of the historic ones actually cited in the "evidence", all) culturally biased, and the supposed evidence for IQ differences is deeply flawed. (The famous example of "The Bell Curve" citing absurd things like tests in English referencing British culture being given to people who didn't even speak English properly and had never been to Britain as accurate IQ tests).

> It's clearly because of some more innate qualities measured by IQ.

This is an absurd statement, because even if the IQ differences exist, you are jumping to a conclusion here: that difference in IQ is innate, and not a result of racism or other external factors, with your only justification being:

> And the differences appear before school age, so it's hardly any opportunity for racism to cause it.

One of the biggest factors for childhood success is how much time your parents spend with you when you are young. If historic racism means your family is poorer, it likely means your parents can spend less time with you. Just one example of many of how this argument just doesn't hold water.