Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective • Hacker News Board

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#181

Post by montefischer » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:20 PM UTC

diffxx wrote: post #168

starkd wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neil Postman came to much the same conclusion about modern entertainment. https://www.amazon.com/Amusing-Ourselves-Death-Discourse-Bus...

That's not what I took away from the book. He mentions his own personal enjoyment of trashy television multiple times. His concern was that he believed that democracy is fundamentally incompatible with a media landscape dominated by television (s/televison/social media in 2022).

In fact, Postman went to great lengths to detail the ways in which "print culture" (including books, newspapers, and even public oration) with its great commitment to complex argumentation shaped society in ways consonant with the sustaining of a democratic republic, while warning that the modern replacement of this older culture was perhaps not so well suited to maintaining a self-governing people.

(edit) Social media / the internet more generally enables 2-way communication in a way that was not possible in either print nor TV culture. Conceptually it lowers barriers to entry to near-zero for communicating one's ideas & learning from others. Earlier forms depended much more heavily on gatekeepers. Is a more nominally democratic form of media culture than this even possible?

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#182

Post by Maursault » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:26 PM UTC

HellDunkel wrote: post #171

Maursault wrote: post #165

The Brothers Karamazov and Crime and Punishment effectively read themselves. They can't be put down. Only with exceptional discipline and great difficulty could one "take it slow," and stop for note-taking. I don't know who reads novels like that. Reading them, time stops, and you return to your life about a week later. Notes From Underground isn't easy, but it is short. The Idiot and The Possessed (Demons, The Devil…

Interesting. I tried "The Idiot" once but was put off by Dostojewski until now. Nobody tells you these things.

I recommend starting with Crime and Punishment, then reward yourself for completing with Brothers Karamazov. Then see Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors, which is a clever retelling of both at the same time for those that read the material.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#183

Post by filoleg » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:43 PM UTC

bckr wrote: post #121

kieckerjan wrote: post #21

I met a young and apparently highly intelligent AI researcher the other week who confessed to me that he thought fiction (books but also movies etc) was a waste of his time: there was nothing to be gained there. Being a lover of fiction myself, I huffed and puffed and he challenged me to name him a book that would change his mind. Usually when people ask me where to start in literature, I advise them to start at the…

This is from someone who is woefully under-read, and only remembered my teenage love of sci-fi in the last couple of years. I thought similarly for several years, that fiction was a waste of time. But then I realized I was scrolling through Twitter every day, and that felt like eating french fries as a meal: lacking substance. Reading long form prose increases your attention span and the shape of your thoughts. Readi…

> I love Asimov. I, Robot is easy because it's a collection of very short stories, but it risks being seen as shallow.

Haha, funny you mention it, because now that I think about it, it hits that attention-span-needed spot right in-between blog/reddit posts and novels. Which, is a pretty nice and gentle way to ease someone into reading novel-sized material.

It greatly helps that reading Asimov's short stories today still feels very gripping and relevant, probably even moreso than back when it was originally published. Though this is more of a feeling, as I obviously cannot verify how it actually felt to read it back then.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#184

Post by badtension » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #126

Bakary wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony is that if all the highly intelligent and capable researchers, capitalists, and knowledge workers read more fiction the world would probably be slightly less dystopian than it currently is

Meh, that's wishful thinking. Fiction is not a silver bullet. Elon Musk loves fiction, did not make him a decent human being.

Loves fiction as in Iron Man is his favorite avenger?

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#185

Post by polio » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:02 PM UTC

Silverback_VII wrote: post #50

dotsam wrote: post #17

> Some deep truths about human nature require instead the reflection provoked by the classics. Yes, read Dostoevsky and the classics. There is so much to learn and to enjoy. But remember that great authors didn't discover deep truths of human nature from books alone, but from their attention to the experiences of real life. “When we read, another person thinks for us: we merely repeat his mental process. In learning…

What if the deep truths about the human nature are in fact very shallow? I can imagine that all human deepness is, not unlike the very sofisticated feathers of the peacock, just a tool to increase status & SMV.

There are plenty of people who still lead complex lives after they are effectively out of said market.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#186

Post by filoleg » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:06 PM UTC

pas wrote: post #132

kieckerjan wrote: post #21

I met a young and apparently highly intelligent AI researcher the other week who confessed to me that he thought fiction (books but also movies etc) was a waste of his time: there was nothing to be gained there. Being a lover of fiction myself, I huffed and puffed and he challenged me to name him a book that would change his mind. Usually when people ask me where to start in literature, I advise them to start at the…

There are quite a few recommendations for the classics, but if someone doesn't enjoy the slow burn of those deep books, maybe they should start with something lot more dopaminergic: animes and movies! PsychoPass, Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Attack on Titan. So, movies. I only saw The Shawshank Redemption a few years ago, and it's really really good. Classic. Human. Touching. I'm not even sure how to…

> PsychoPass, Akira, Cowboy Bebop, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Attack on Titan.

I totally agree with everything on this list, except Akira and NGE. And I am saying that as someone for whom NGE is the all-time personal favorite piece of animated media (and I like Akira a lot too, just not as much).

Akira and NGE are pretty much deconstructions of genres, and are really heavy on at least some basic level of previous exposure and understanding of the context. I am fairly certain that if you make someone without much previous exposure to the context watch Akira, you will get a very resounding "what the fuck did you just make me watch". Watched it in a movie theater myself around 5 years ago, and it was definitely a wild ride. With NGE, I rewatched it many times, partially because I almost always discovered something new on subsequent rewatches.

The rest of the ones you've mentioned are great for easing-in though, and are not shallow even in the slightest. I would also add Ghost in the Shell: Stand-alone Complex series to the list of recommendations.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#187

Post by gregcoombe » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:09 PM UTC

Tolstoy also has a lot to share about programming. "Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way" is a clear recommendation to use status codes as return values instead of boolean success/fail.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#188

Post by HellDunkel » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:18 PM UTC

Maursault wrote: post #182

HellDunkel wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. I tried "The Idiot" once but was put off by Dostojewski until now. Nobody tells you these things.

I recommend starting with Crime and Punishment, then reward yourself for completing with Brothers Karamazov. Then see Allen's Crimes and Misdemeanors, which is a clever retelling of both at the same time for those that read the material.

Will follow your advice.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#189

Post by Silverback_VII » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:34 PM UTC

polio wrote: post #185

Silverback_VII wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the deep truths about the human nature are in fact very shallow? I can imagine that all human deepness is, not unlike the very sofisticated feathers of the peacock, just a tool to increase status & SMV.

There are plenty of people who still lead complex lives after they are effectively out of said market.

Some people certainly think that they are out of the market but their organism may have a different opinion.

People who are truly out of the market like postmenopausal women often feel a lack of motivation and their physical activity measurably decreases.

Re: Why read Dostoevsky? A programmer's perspective

#190

Post by novok » Sat, Oct 01, 2022, 8:49 PM UTC

kieckerjan wrote: post #21

I met a young and apparently highly intelligent AI researcher the other week who confessed to me that he thought fiction (books but also movies etc) was a waste of his time: there was nothing to be gained there. Being a lover of fiction myself, I huffed and puffed and he challenged me to name him a book that would change his mind. Usually when people ask me where to start in literature, I advise them to start at the…

That person is just on a personal mission right now. Once he has achieved his internal goal, the space for leisure will start opening up to him. People who like video games, but are on a mission about their new thing don't really feel like they want to play video games, even though they played them a lot in their past for example.

Also some people are just missing things neurologically that make certain things compelling for most people. Some people just don't care for music much because it doesn't do much for them and concerts are kind of confusing enjoyment wise. Same with many people in software for watching sports, they're just not that into it.

For others, it moves them greatly. Maybe he doesn't create the internal world required for fiction when he reads fiction.

So either he is on a mission (people who are noticeably good at something tend to be) or they are just missing the thing that would make it enjoyable for them.