Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding • Hacker News Board

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#191

Post by MichaelCollins » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:15 AM UTC

housingisaright wrote: post #98

rendall wrote: post #67

Everyone seems to know it was Russia and is just casting out ideas to find a plausible motivation. I find that completely baffling. For opportunity, consider that while setting up the pipeline needs a weird high-pressure residence and special training, blowing it up takes a fishing boat, scuba gear and underwater explosives. The equipment and training is cheap and available. So, those with opportunity is almost anyon…

? who else would've done it? Stop pretending. 'Maybe not russia??' is an exciting idea, but this is not a Tom Clancy novel and no such groups in Europe exists. Especially that would have the resources to carry out an attack like this. The destruction of the pipeline happens simultaneous as Russia is in a direct conflict with Ukraine/Europe and is constantly flying drones at Norwegian oil platforms.

An underwater pipeline blowing up? In a Tom Clancy novel it would definitely be a submarine doing it. Tom Clancy wouldn't pass up an opportunity for a submarine subplot.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#192

Post by koonsolo » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:16 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #122

koonsolo wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of years ago??? Around 2010 they had 17 reactors, then they shut down 8. Last years they only had 6 running, now only 3. Yeah, they needed gas alright, because nuclear seems so much worse...

With 17 reactors Germany still consumed a lot of gas. Even if electricity were 100% nuclear, Germany would still consume a lot of gas. Only a small percentage of the gas Germany uses is burned for electricity. Most goes towards heating homes and industrial processes.

Why do you need gas to heat homes??? Heat pumps seem like the most ecological solution.

Let's face it, we're in this shit because of political shortsightedness, not because it was the best way to go.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#193

Post by MichaelCollins » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:19 AM UTC

rendall wrote: post #67

Everyone seems to know it was Russia and is just casting out ideas to find a plausible motivation. I find that completely baffling. For opportunity, consider that while setting up the pipeline needs a weird high-pressure residence and special training, blowing it up takes a fishing boat, scuba gear and underwater explosives. The equipment and training is cheap and available. So, those with opportunity is almost anyon…

> Just spitballing here, but why not a German opposition group?

More likely the opposite. With the pipeline intact, German opposition could tell voters they will turn that gas on, something the present German government isn't willing to do. Now they can't, so the German opposition has less to offer.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#194

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:25 AM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #163

DownGoat wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charges could have been placed weeks ago, finding culprits will be very hard if someone does not take responsibility

How would you trigger them? 100m down radio doesn't work at all. ELF antennas are nation-state level assets and need receiving antennas that are hundreds of metres long. Acoustic messaging is possible, but again hard to do. Timed charges are plausible but that's a heck of a commitment (of course 3/4 breaches suggests a possible misfire - I imagine theres a hunt on for the last one).

[deleted]

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#195

Post by MichaelCollins » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:45 AM UTC

KennyBlanken wrote: post #187

belorn wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diving down 60-80 meters in the baltic ocean is quite advanced technical diving if you are just going to go down there and up again. Doing any kind of work (which increase breathing) at those depths is a massive step in complexity. We are talking about cold water diving, at hypoxic gas depths, with usually low visibility. The dive would require several hours of decompression in the middle of a shipping lane. The dens…

As someone with diving experience I laughed at parent comment's "anyone with scuba gear" assertion too - a classic example of "I'm an expert at everything because I'm a smart programmer who makes $200k a year" arrogance that is endemic here - but you're right next to them. - The timing of the explosions doesn't require "multiple coordinated teams." It requires timers. Or, as is common with naval mines, an acoustic ar…

> In fact, you're assuming explosives were planted, and someone didn't use a smart torpedo of some sort.

I think planted explosives makes more sense; it would leave less/no identifiable debris behind.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#196

Post by 5560675260 » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:48 AM UTC

rendall wrote: post #139

samastur wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because it happened in international waters ON THEIR assets.

It didn't happen in international waters. It happened in Danish, Swedish and Finnish waters. Denmark is in NATO.

It happened in their "exclusive economic zones", not territorial waters. Very bad, but still leaves some place for manoeuvre.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#197

Post by rad_gruchalski » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:51 AM UTC

belorn wrote: post #164

rendall wrote: post #67

Everyone seems to know it was Russia and is just casting out ideas to find a plausible motivation. I find that completely baffling. For opportunity, consider that while setting up the pipeline needs a weird high-pressure residence and special training, blowing it up takes a fishing boat, scuba gear and underwater explosives. The equipment and training is cheap and available. So, those with opportunity is almost anyon…

Diving down 60-80 meters in the baltic ocean is quite advanced technical diving if you are just going to go down there and up again. Doing any kind of work (which increase breathing) at those depths is a massive step in complexity. We are talking about cold water diving, at hypoxic gas depths, with usually low visibility. The dive would require several hours of decompression in the middle of a shipping lane. The dens…

Anybody who has the skill to dive to wrecks located at the depth of 80m to 100+m, has the skill to do this: http://www.balticwrecks.com/en/wrecks/.

By the way - Baltic Sea is not an ocean.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#198

Post by BurningPenguin » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:53 AM UTC

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #83

BurningPenguin wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RussiaZ for victory Yeah, that seems like a real trustworthy channel... Btw. they were talking about heavy sanctions back in the time.

This is a clip of Biden speaking, what does it matter what channel it's posted on?

That's the thing. It's a single clip. Where is the rest? What's the context? Is it even the real clip? Those are questions you should ask yourself whenever you see some random internet dude post something. And a channel that posts only the russian side of the story and calls itself "russiaz for victory" doesn't seem very neutral.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#199

Post by tehbeard » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 10:54 AM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #124

piaste wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had your exact same reaction, except with the US at the top of the suspects list (or non-governmental agents whose interests align with the US, of which there are plenty). The #1 reason I'm still leaning Russia nevertheless is because of an outside factor: Russia isn't screaming bloody murder about it . If 3/4th of their pipelines had gone up and nobody in the Russian government was involved, Lavrov would already b…

If they'd blown up their own assets, they would blame the west for it anyway no?

The thinking for them doing it themselves is this is more a subtle threat like their polonium and novichok poisonings, but with less immediately political backlash (i.e. No article 5 triggered)

A "we have the capability to do this... lots of other pipes out there.... Have a pleasant day" sort of message.

Re: Nord Stream: Tie-ins and hyperbaric welding

#200

Post by adrianN » Wed, Sep 28, 2022, 11:02 AM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #192

adrianN wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 17 reactors Germany still consumed a lot of gas. Even if electricity were 100% nuclear, Germany would still consume a lot of gas. Only a small percentage of the gas Germany uses is burned for electricity. Most goes towards heating homes and industrial processes.

Why do you need gas to heat homes??? Heat pumps seem like the most ecological solution. Let's face it, we're in this shit because of political shortsightedness, not because it was the best way to go.

We're talking about whether keeping the nuclear plants on would have made Germany independent of Russian gas. If we had heat pumps everywhere we might as well use renewable energy, that's cheaper than nuclear.