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Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

nytimes.com

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Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#81

Post by Eleison23 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #38
wyager wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I don't think "not as bad as Hitler" is a bar one should be aiming for. I was specifically referring to the Catholic Church's penchant for treating unmarried mothers and poor children like trash. Like in Ireland: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/9-000-children-died-irish... And in Britain and Australia: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/nov/03/catholic-chu... And in Canada: https://www.france24.com/en/americ…

Hmm, well let's ask a poor child born to an unmarried mother about his experience.

I was born in a Catholic hospital, where abortion was out of the question. My father refused to marry my mother, so she felt she didn't have a "choice", and wept many tears as she "voluntarily" signed the papers to relinquish custody to the State, placing me for adoption.

I was adopted by Catholic parents who ensured I received the Sacraments regularly, as well as religious instruction and we attended Mass always. They sent me to Catholic schools run by religious orders whose mission and charism involves caring for the poor, needy, and marginalized.

These religious orders (including Irish sisters) upheld my dignity, respected me and my classmates, and they demonstrated in tangible ways how much God loves us. They did all of this while giving me a top-notch education, often at discounted tuition or on scholarship as necessary to keep me in school.

When I was homeless, unemployed and penniless, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul met my material needs and helped me survive long lonely nights with a few meals and kind words.

I dunno, if anyone ever made me feel like trash, it wasn't the Catholic Church. Quite the opposite.

Username checks out.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#82

Post by Valakas_ »

thatguy0900 wrote: post #30
motohagiography wrote: post #24

Medicine and psychiatry often seem to be at the center of these regimes. Is there sometihng about doctors and ideology that goes so closely together? Maybe it's the pretext the regimes to suspend rules and rationality. German doctors began a "euthenasia" program several years before the war broke out, and no governing body of theirs seems to have historically been above using prisoners for medical experiments. Even r…

There's bad doctors, just like there are bad people in every profession. How many software engineers does it take to make a dystopian spy state or spy company? You probably need many more than you would need doctors for unethical experiments. What's wrong with software engineers that they would knowingly do such a thing? I suspect the motivations for wanting to push the technological limits in advertising or spying a…

No. It's not "just like". People with Cluster B personality disorders, especially the ones at the end of the spectrum with ASPD/psychopathy crave power over others. They enjoy looking into the eyes of someone while life fades away, or seeing the tears come out due to powerlessness and suffering. They like, crave direct contact. It is VERY different to cause suffering in a dispassionate way through software and hear about it on the news, or do it yourself in person 1on1.

So, no. Besides, it has been shown that there are professions with disproportionately much more psychopathic people than others. Which makes perfect sense, considering what I just said, even though there's more to be said about this subject.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#83

Post by trasz »

cm2187 wrote: post #55
adolph wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point someone has to expect something Inquisition-like in Spain, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-da-f%C3%A9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanish_Inquisition_(Monty...

The french revolution killed in a couple of years a high multiple of what the Spanish inquisition killed in over a century. Of all the crimes, massacres and genocides of the last centuries, it probably doesn't even register in the top 200.

You can’t compare an uprising against internal occupant (French Revolution) with a genocide (Catholic fascists).

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#84

Post by EntropyIsAHoax »

oilslick wrote: post #66
motohagiography wrote: post #24

Medicine and psychiatry often seem to be at the center of these regimes. Is there sometihng about doctors and ideology that goes so closely together? Maybe it's the pretext the regimes to suspend rules and rationality. German doctors began a "euthenasia" program several years before the war broke out, and no governing body of theirs seems to have historically been above using prisoners for medical experiments. Even r…

Quoted post unavailable.

Except that people undergoing these surgeries do so willingly, face massive barriers to ensure they are thinking clearly and understand the consequences, show minimal regret rates, often have to undergo extensive psychological counseling beforehand, etc...

Except for everything it's exactly the same.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#85

Post by Thorrez »

trasz wrote: post #74
aubanel wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have rationale supporting the hand of the Church in fascist regimes? The Catholic Church expressed its rejection of fascism via the strongest possible channel: an encyclic written by Pius XI in 1937, _Mit Brennender Sorge_, was read during the Sunday mass in all churches of Germany although the Nazis were already repressing opponents. Even more: according to statistical studies, out of many socioeconomic varia…

An encyclic is just a marketing material. What matters is what they actually did. The Vatican was gifted to Church by… fascists.

>In Weimar Germany, the Catholic Church vehemently warned ordinary parishioners about the dangers of extremist parties.

Is that doing something?

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#86

Post by goldorak »

anvic wrote: post #65
drekipus wrote: post #58

Quoted post unavailable.

Franco was so bad that a law had to be enacted recently to stop people from cherishing him.

Germany have similar laws but more restrictive, there is always ppl that support fascist regimes, like you with this comment.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#87

Post by fsckboy »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

I just read the wikipedia article about it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Child_Welfare_Act

notice that it does not say that the children didn't need to be removed from their family situations, just that a new policy was put in place to place them in foster care within Native American culture, contrary to what had been happening, so the extremely high percentage of children to whom this was happening which you refer to seems to be a serious problem in its own right.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#89

Post by trasz »

Guthur wrote: post #59
boomboomsubban wrote: post #37

This doesn't seem drastically different than what was openly happening to Native Americans in the US until the passage of the Indian Child Welfare Act in 1978. By some estimates, as many as 3/4ths of Native American children were taken from their families for adoption or foster care. And that's assuming the law stopped the practice, some states still see many Native American children shipped to non-Native communities…

And similarly in Australia. The more appropriate description is taken by STATE. These and more issues come from state bureaucracies irrespective of any other trappings. Otherwise decent people will do terrible things when given a bureaucratic goal, just to achieve said goal, and then will say they were only doing their job or following orders.

Where’s “state” usually means the church, with state’s approval.

Re: Taken under fascism, Spain’s ‘stolen babies’ are learning the truth

#90

Post by boomboomsubban »

Schroedingersat wrote: post #62
boomboomsubban wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was saying these programs don't need to be run by fascist dictators who forged documents far away in the distant past. The democratic US either did or does the same kind of thing without that kind of deception.

You're pointing that implication arrow the wrong way there.

I genuinely have no idea what you mean, please explain further.
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