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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#121

Post by propogandist »

jtbayly wrote: post #108
xuki wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatsapp can't read the message on their servers but they can read it at clients, otherwise they cannot display the messages for users. Likewise, Apple/Google can read them too because they have to in order to render the texts.

This is just redefining terms, then. We know the app decrypts it to display it. But if the app decrypts it to send it to the parent company, then it is by definition not end to end encrypted anymore. If the app decrypts it, analyzes it and sends information about the message to the parent company, then the same thing is happening. The parent company is reading the message, INSTEAD of E2E encrypting it. It doesn't mat…

there was a time when “Unlimited” meant without any limits, but US cell carriers have redefined the term to support their business model.

It’s possible that this data harvesting ad company has redefined what E2E means (to them) to advance their business interests.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#123

Post by Maro »

rreyes1979 wrote: post #40
elondaits wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another option would be that META created a small model that could be run client-side and picked the right selection of ads to show elsewhere without even exfiltrating keywords.

Well, my wife sent me a picture of my daughter working on a puzzle. Less than 24 hours later, her Instagram was showing ads for a store that was selling the same type of puzzle as the one my daughter was playing with. So it's not just terms but images too.

Assuming Android: your pictures may be "parsed" by Google once they make it into Google Photos. Also, Meta may think that "parsing" the images in your local Whatsapp folder of Google Photos (or all of your local images) is fair game. Note that I have no clue if this happens, I'm speculating.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#124

Post by rockbruno »

I keep being told this is a conspiracy and that several people checked on this and found no evidence of them spying on you, but I still have a hard time believing they're not doing something really sketchy.

The case that was the final straw for me was when I was chatting with my partner and remembered a funny song from my childhood, so I opened YouTube on Safari and showed it to her. A couple of minutes later, she opens Instagram (on her own phone) and the first "follow suggestion" is the artist from the song. She had never heard of this song before, much less of the artist (which is not famous at all).

I would understand if everything happened on my phone/accounts, but the suggestion was on her phone and account. I don't think they're literally listening to you, but there's definitely a GPS-based user relationship table somewhere which reflects what you do to everyone they think has some connection to you and is physically close to you.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#125

Post by planede »

Instead of speculating whether something like this could or could not be true, there should be a way to test it scientifically.

* Have pairs of mobile devices set up from factory configuration with WhatsApp and Instagram installed.

* Simulate conversations between each pair from select topics.

* Collect all ads from Instagram after the WhatsApp conversations from each device.

* Categorize ads to broad topics.

* Search for significant bias.

There are probably a lot of factors I'm missing here, and it's probably easy to introduce bias when there is none there. For example it's probably a good idea that a different person categorizes the ads into topics than the person handling the specific phone, otherwise the person might bias the categorization of the ads based on the conversation they had on WhatsApp beforehand. The person categorizing the ads should have no knowledge of the WhatsApp conversation that happened on the phone. The devices should probably be on different networks. There is probably a lot that I am missing here.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#126

Post by piva00 »

jtbayly wrote: post #103
FreeHugs wrote: post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.

It means that for strictly one receiver end-to-end encryption. When it's touted as a feature without explicitly stating that "all messages are sent only e2e encrypted and only to your receiver" we can't assume only the receiver is getting the message, it might be E2E encrypted for all traffic, between people using their own keys and nothing stops Meta from sending a different encrypted payload to their own servers with a key they have access to.

Facebook loves to use newspeak, wouldn't surprise me if they applied newspeak to what "end-to-end encryption" means.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#127

Post by m0RRSIYB0Zq8MgL »

jtbayly wrote: post #103
FreeHugs wrote: post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.

End-to-End means that it can't be read in the middle. It does not not mean it can't be read by proprietary clients on either end.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#128

Post by jtbayly »

spoiler wrote: post #118
jtbayly wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. No, that's precisely what End-to-End encryption means.

So you're nit-picking over the phrasing of the sentence, but should instead focus on the spirit/meaning behind it. It's illustrated in their example below that they if you say you're having a baby, meta can send some type of distilled ad-keywords to its servers (eg `[mother, baby]` if it knows the user is a woman based on their name/profile, but probably more sophisticated than that). The message you sent is still te…

I addressed this just below:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32951417

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#129

Post by a-dub »

kevincox wrote: post #110
a-dub wrote: post #99

try an external source of true randomness for choosing your test topics. choices that seem random to you may be totally predictable. i know that's wild, but also often true. humans are bad at randomness. there may be no direct leak at all of your test topics, they might just be guessable based on everything that is known about you, people like you and things you've been presented or looked at.

You also have to factor in confirmation bias-type effects where when you are looking for something everything seems related. If you are seeing dozens of ads a day on Instagram and suddenly you have some "random" topic in your head you will mentally connect them. Maybe this could be counteracted by something like: 1. Generate multiple random topics and only send one across WhatsApp. Count "related" ads for each. 2. Fo…

that would work. i would be utterly shocked if an experiment like that still found related ads. (you'd probably also want a prior on the baseline prevalence of various topics.)

assuming that's all true, good news is that they're not doing any totally illegal spying. bad news is, they don't have to.

> If you are seeing dozens of ads a day on Instagram and suddenly you have some "random" topic in your head you will mentally connect them.

ahh yes. incidentally that sort of behavior is often linked with the onset of poor mental health. there are some interesting questions around the limits of personalization and impacts on mental health. if the machine behaves like magic, specifically on a personal level, does that encourage magical thinking?

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#130

Post by tonyhb »

I literally mentioned Vitamix in a single WhatsApp call and started getting Vitamix ads on IG. Note that I've never searched for a blender, and I don't really want one; this is the only occurrence of Vitamix in... years of my conversations.

So, I'm guessing that they not only read your messages, but also run TTS on your calls and serve relevant ads.

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