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Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

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Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#91
One explanation I've heard for mysterious "We were talking about it in person but nothing else" ads, is that if you were connecting to the internet from the same Wi-Fi access point or IP address as someone else that did a web search on the topic or visited websites on the topic, it has connected you by way of shared internet connection.

Is it possible something like that happened?

In general, while anything is possible, my own occam's razor calculation is that if someone does have a way to get through ostensibly end-to-end encrypted messages, it's going to be government actors saving it for law enforcement/national security purposes. They wouldn't "waste" it on ad targetting. And if it's being secretly used for ad targeting so many people would know about it, people who aren't disciplined military bound by law to secrecy, that it would be quite likely to get out and be revealed and no longer secret.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#92
I'm pretty sure even the mics are listening to what we say since for years it's been happening that when I discuss something with my girlfriend ads about it start to show up. We don't even use WhatsApp, didn't search about the said company on Google or Facebook, nothing. We just discuss something about it with our phones on our side and suddently ads start showing up.

The fact they are spying on WhatsApp messages isn't really surprising.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#93
Meta owns the code. You type messages into a little text box, Meta (the whatsapp app) takes that plain text and encrypts it. There's no way that they do not have access to each and every single message you type for enough time to collect data on you.

And, given it's Meta, there's no way they are not doing this.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#94

Call me paranoid, but what about stuff that you just say when around your phone? This has happened to me a few times (ads showing up about relevant obscure topics), so I'm wondering.

I think that's paranoid. Looking at the state of speech recognition, they have a hard time even when actively listening to a clean source. Extending on this, they have more productive, lower hanging fruits than this[0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targeted_advertising

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#95

I'm pretty sure even the mics are listening to what we say since for years it's been happening that when I discuss something with my girlfriend ads about it start to show up. We don't even use WhatsApp, didn't search about the said company on Google or Facebook, nothing. We just discuss something about it with our phones on our side and suddently ads start showing up. The fact they are spying on WhatsApp messages isn…

There has been a couple of studies on the topic that observed network traffic and never were able to found anything. So despite the persistence of the rumors, so far this remains a conspiracy theory.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#96
post #5

Just because that the messages might be sent end-to-end encrypted from Sue to Joe does not mean Meta cannot read them. Meta has control over the app Sue uses. So they could send them to Meta unencrypted in addition to sending them to Joe in an encrypted fashion. Or they just extract the relevant terms: Sue->Joe: "Hello Joe, I'm so excited! We are going to have a baby! Let's call it Dingbert. You're not the father! Ji…

My guess is they encrypt the message twice, append it, and split it off at their servers. To anyone observing traffic, it looks like normal encrypted traffic AND they can still, if needed, show that everyone has their own key and can encrypt/decrypt their own messages. I don't think they would be brazen enough to send it to themselves in plain text.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#97
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She probably gave Instagram access to her photo library (not unreasonable for a photo sharing app). That means the Instagram app can scan her latest pictures in the background when it's opened. I think it's more likely that the data was leaked this way.

Is this something that actually happens (= can anyone prove this by disassembling the app or MITMing the network traffic), or is it just unfounded paranoia?

Considering how easy it is to implement these things without anyone noticing since it's closed source, you have to assume it is happening in any scenario where you need any decent opsec. Even in scenarios where you don't, there's been enough cases of similar things happening with well-known apps and services to be wary.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#98
Another idea: test a null hypothesis. Block with your pi-hole or a proxy all the facebook traffic so the messages won't work. Then reproduce with the same exact behavior with your wife (it would be better if you both could get a clean identity and then repeat the exact same conversations and topics, but getting a clean identity is not that easy) so all the external factors are the same except the facebook connection itself. It could be even more granular by trying to block just enough so it won't send the messages, allowing facebook ad trackers, etc.

If you try this several times, the messages are not working and the corresponding ads show up you can be sure that it is not because they are reading your messages. Which does not rule out the possibility that they might read them, but at least you can be 100% sure that your ads are not showing up because of your messages in this case.

If they do show up you could then try discarding other factors like client-side keyword analysis e.g.: talking about very generic things which are not useful to ad trackers like "how you going?", etc (ie. awkward elevator conversations), but it is harder to test a null hypothesis for client-side keyword analysis.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#99
try an external source of true randomness for choosing your test topics. choices that seem random to you may be totally predictable.

i know that's wild, but also often true. humans are bad at randomness. there may be no direct leak at all of your test topics, they might just be guessable based on everything that is known about you, people like you and things you've been presented or looked at.

Re: Ask HN: Ads triggered by WhatsApp “end to end encrypted” messages?

#100
post #34

If it is all encrypted how comes the police always have access to whatsapp conversations?

It's hard to encrypt "all". "End to end" encrypted would mean that a message is encrypted while in transit. "At rest" encryption would mean that the plain text message is not saved on storage, just the cypher. Software however can behave in a way that all of these are true, yet, the plain text is readable by a third party. For example, the app can send the plain text after you decrypted it. Or the encryption could have multiple keys that can decrypt; you can have a private key for yourself, and the authorities could have a master private key that decrypts all. Your phone could have a middleman between the touchscreen and the application, and so, your "keystrokes" can be stored and sent somewhere, for example, by your keyboard application.
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